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| John Locke by Herman Verelst |
Despite appearances, church and state have not filed the divorce papers.
Thomas Jefferson said that government is not to interfere with religion; but interestingly enough I couldn’t find evidence of his having said that religion is not to interfere with government. In 1802 he wrote, “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God (…)”; and if true then it is easy to assume that religion indirectly interferes with government.
The First Amendment of the United States Constitution says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. The usual interpretation of this is that the federal government besides being forbidden from passing laws to establish religions, it cannot designate an official religion for the nation either; however we are under the impression that the official religion in the United States is Christianity (notice how Presidential candidates strive to prove how Christian they are, how they abide by Christian values, lest they won’t be elected. Yes, the congress and the senate are religiously eclectic; nevertheless, it seems like the commander-in-chief needs to be Christian).
The 41st article (line 5) of the Portuguese Constitution says, “The Church and other religious communities are separated from the State and are free to organise themselves and, exercise their functions and services” but is the State separate from religion? Former socialist PM António Guterres, an observant Catholic, passed a bill forbidding supermarkets from trading on the Lord’s Day; then over a decade later socialist PM José Sócrates, a more spiritual liberal individual, reversed the decision and people could go back to shop on Sundays. Furthermore, in Portugal, Roman Catholicism is the de facto religion.
The first article of the French Constitution states that “La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale.”(Transl: France is an undivided, secular, democratic and social Republic), yet most French holidays are religious holidays (Catholic, of course, making France therefore a de facto Catholic nation).
Many countries (ex: England, Brazil, Greece, Costa Rica, Monaco, Israel etc) are a good example of how a nation can openly declare its state religion and yet present a healthy balance between secularism and religion. However, despite their equilibrium and respect for other religions, there is one interesting common ground between them and those that openly defend separation of state and church: the heads of the state must profess the official religion of the country.
No matter how many turns humans may give to this subject the truth is that State and Church still have an extremely intricate relationship, due to the following reasons:
- The state is ran by Men and, any man’s spiritual education will forcefully affect his thoughts, values, conduct and, thus, decision-making.
- The people elect politicians and, usually they are the vast majority who professes the state religion (be it either de facto or de jure).
Is separation of church and state a reality or a fantasy? I’d say, a very interesting fantasy.
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"Despite appearances, church and state have not filed the divorce papers." - It would be futile to ask the Vatican ("what God has joined together, let no man put asunder") but I dream to see the day that this will eventually happen. Great article Max! As always. Hugs :-)
ReplyDeleteWell, the interesting thing about our founding fathers in the United States, is that they felt inspired by God to come here, and they felt God's hand in helping them write our constitution. For them, separation of church and state meant that there should be no state religion, but not that the government should exclude God all together! They are probably standing in heaven, shaking their heads at how our politicians have fought to keep God out of our country.
ReplyDeleteDamn......I completely agree. That's no fun......I love our debates.
ReplyDeleteGreat post!!
Is it a deliberate omission to leave countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan, Malaysia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Tunisia, Malawi, Sudan and so on? Or for the matter, India, Srilanka, Nepal, Bhutan etc?
ReplyDeleteWhat would you say to this?
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2085306,00.html
Max, interesting how singled out the US, Portugal and France.
ReplyDeleteUS: would it ever elect a Jewish President? Would one day Ram Emmanuel or Eric Cantor have a chance to take office at the White House? Would a Muslim ever have that chance? I am not sure, and yes Christianity does seem to be their state religion.
Portugal: will this nation ever elect a Jewish president? Well, it has already elected the grandson of a Jewish Lady (President Jorge Sampaio - he didn't do a very good job though) but will the country ever choose for its president a observant Jewish President? Given the fact that the Portuguese Jewish community seems to be hiding (except for me, cause I am a proud Jew and I am not afraid of it) - we have no Jewish restaurants [I can't rely on Portuguese restaurants cause they eat a lot of Pork and they have no respect for Jews and Muslims when preparing meals; however the Muslims already have a restaurant in Lisbon...but we, Jews, don't], what...do I have to go to Spain for it? anyway, I digress...- so, will we ever have a Jewish President?
France: oh come on...they have just framed Dominique Strauss-Khan (a Jew) for having the audacity of being a presidential candidate...need I say more?
But then we have another question...Would Israel ever elect a Christian president or PM? What about Muslim nations?
Hi Max,
ReplyDeleteI especially love your opening line. Brilliant!
It's probably a bit of both. America was founded on Christian ideals and we constantly have people challenging that base. Atheists voices seem to be rising to destroy it and the threat of Sharia Law is lurking taking a swipe at the Christian mantle too. The argument is rife especially in election year.
I want to think that politicians are more than just control freaks who want to change our beliefs to deceit, but the players dictate the game.
A stimulating piece indeed my friend.
Godtastic Cheers!
Hi Leo :D!
ReplyDelete"It would be futile to ask the Vatican ("what God has joined together, let no man put asunder") but I dream to see the day that this will eventually happen."
lol I will not get into the implications of "what God has joined together, let no man put asunder" (since this is not a discussion on mysticism); but I see where you're coming from.
"Great article Max! As always. Hugs :-) "
Thank you, darling *bowing*. You were sorely missed *hug*.
Leo, thanks a million for your input :D.
Cheers
Hi D! :D
ReplyDelete"Well, the interesting thing about our founding fathers in the United States, is that they felt inspired by God to come here, and they felt God's hand in helping them write our constitution."
I doubt not that God was there in helping them to write your constitution...
"For them, separation of church and state meant that there should be no state religion, but not that the government should exclude God all together!"
I see, but there is a de facto state religion in the US, isn't there?
"They are probably standing in heaven, shaking their heads at how our politicians have fought to keep God out of our country."
LOL LOL *nodding*...your country is not that bad, trust me.
D, loved your comment and I thank you a lot for it :D.
Cheers
Hi Mel :D!
ReplyDelete"Damn......I completely agree. That's no fun......I love our debates."
lol oh my God...he agrees ;). LOL I love our debates too, man...you rock!
"Great post!!"
Why, thank you *bowing*.
Mel, thank you ever so much for your generosity :D.
Cheers
Hi Rummy :D!
ReplyDelete"Is it a deliberate omission to leave countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan, Malaysia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Tunisia, Malawi, Sudan and so on? Or for the matter, India, Srilanka, Nepal, Bhutan etc?"
Yes, it is a deliberate omission. Some of the countries you named were actually included in my original text, but then I took them off because they did not match the words in the final draft; and for me to speak about their situation I'd have to present almost a thesis (since I have much to say about them).
About India, I did not include it because I still know little about it (and I do not write about things I know not). After I finish studying Latin America, I will begin looking into India (I promise).
"What would you say to this? http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2085306,00.html"
First, thank you for the link. I would say that the Catholic church still has much influence in Ireland (proven, for instance, by the illegality of abortions and the control by the church of the education system), although it does not brainwash it any longer. PM Kenny is an enlightened Catholic who seeks to protect Irish children from the attrocities committed by some catholic priests. If I were Irish (regardless of my belief-system) I'd support him.
Basically, this article shows us that the Irish State (wife) no longer accepts to be subjugated by the Church (husband); it rather wishes for the Political Couple to have a harmonious marriage (i.e. they complement and respect each other).
Rummy, thank you so much for your input :D.
Cheers
Hi Ana :D!
ReplyDelete"Max, interesting how singled out the US, Portugal and France."
There is a purpose for it...
"US: would it ever elect a Jewish President? Would one day Ram Emmanuel or Eric Cantor have a chance to take office at the White House? Would a Muslim ever have that chance? I am not sure, and yes Christianity does seem to be their state religion."
Well, a few years ago no one would say that the US would, one day, elect a "black" president, until it elected President Obama. So, we never know (I mean, the US is a surprising nation).
"Portugal: will this nation ever elect a Jewish president? Well, it has already elected the grandson of a Jewish Lady (President Jorge Sampaio - he didn't do a very good job though) but will the country ever choose for its president a observant Jewish President? Given the fact that the Portuguese Jewish community seems to be hiding (except for me, cause I am a proud Jew and I am not afraid of it) - we have no Jewish restaurants [I can't rely on Portuguese restaurants cause they eat a lot of Pork and they have no respect for Jews and Muslims when preparing meals; however the Muslims already have a restaurant in Lisbon...but we, Jews, don't], what...do I have to go to Spain for it? anyway, I digress...- so, will we ever have a Jewish President?"
Well, the Jewish community would have to do a very good PR campaign first. They should start by reminding the Portuguese that 70% of the nation has Jewish blood. Jorge Sampaio is Jewish? I did not know that.
LOL of course you are a proud Jew *nodding* - you kill me.
That is so true: it is very difficult for a Kashrut observant Jew or a Muslim to eat in Portuguese restaurants. Or even for people who are allergic to pork, for all that matter. There is no respect. Perhaps one day, someone will open a Jewish restaurant in Lisbon, who knows.
Again, Portugal can be a surprising country (when it wants to); but like I said: a PR job must be done and the Portuguese Jews (other than Ester Mucznik) have to come out of the shadows - they should learn more from the Americans.
"France: oh come on...they have just framed Dominique Strauss-Khan (a Jew) for having the audacity of being a presidential candidate...need I say more?"
LOL oh, now he was framed because he was a Jew and not because of his promiscuity? Too far fetched, if you ask me.
"But then we have another question...Would Israel ever elect a Christian president or PM? What about Muslim nations?"
Well, Christians are only around 2% of the Israeli population so, I don't know. Unless the Israeli Left would vote for a Christian individual. But I have to admit that this is a very interesting question with perhaps a complex answer.
As for Muslim nations: first they'd have to tone down the influence of the Imans and Al-Quran on State affairs...
Ana, provocative comment (I adored it)! Thank you ever so much for it :D.
Cheers
Hi Alexys :D!
ReplyDelete"I especially love your opening line. Brilliant!"
Thank you *bowing*.
"America was founded on Christian ideals and we constantly have people challenging that base."
In the Treaty of Tripoli [1797], the US said that " (...) the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religions (...)" and perhaps that is why people think they can challenge that base.
"Atheists voices seem to be rising to destroy it and the threat of Sharia Law is lurking taking a swipe at the Christian mantle too. The argument is rife especially in election year."
Let me tell you a secret: there are no atheists (their negation is actually an affirmation of God's existence). But yes, there is an increasing number of people seeking their 15 minutes of fame; and the way they chose was to provoke Believers.
Sharia Law in the US: it will never happen.
Ah yes; do you think these elections will be interesting?
"I want to think that politicians are more than just control freaks who want to change our beliefs to deceit, but the players dictate the game."
I want to think that too...but sometimes...
"A stimulating piece indeed my friend."
Thank you so much *bowing*.
Lady A, loved your comment for which I thank you a lot :D.
"Godtastic Cheers"
LOL loved it!
You're goddesstastic Cheers
To begin with religion is a way of life but has somehow become the most controversial things in our life as more and more branches of religion get carved out and the members of all fight for supremacy to showcase their religion as the best. I agree governments should not have any role in subscribing or denouncing any religion, but the fact happened is that mainly in democracies, the Governments in order to cling on to power somehow has generally been seen to be appeasing minorities which are generally small groups and can be influenced easily, but then the majority group objects to that, the government tries the other way to also not to distance them and in this way the Government directly or indirectly gets involved in meddling in religious affairs as each religious group try to get the best package out from any government, as one of the main objectives of any religion is to attract as many members as possible to its fold. To me religious activities should not be funded by the State, but it should be left to the individual and the communities and then only their can be separation between the State and Religious groups.
ReplyDeleteMax,
ReplyDelete"Well, a few years ago no one would say that the US would, one day, elect a "black" president, until it elected President Obama. So, we never know (I mean, the US is a surprising nation)."
President Obama is not black nor "black", he is a mulatto. I don't know where people got the notion that mixed individuals and black people are the same thing - they're obviously not, in so many ways.
And then, because people think Pres. Obama is black some "African" American groups are putting pressure on him to solve "black problems"...do white Americans succeed only because they had several white presidents? Would Jewish Americans be more successful with a Jewish President? It doesn't make much sense, Max.
"They should start by reminding the Portuguese that 70% of the nation has Jewish blood. Jorge Sampaio is Jewish? I did not know that."
Do you really think it would work? Yes, Jorge Sampaio's grandmother was Jewish and you know that by the law of return he could be an Israeli if he wanted to.
"LOL oh, now he was framed because he was a Jew and not because of his promiscuity? Too far fetched, if you ask me."
I am telling you it was because he was a Jew.The french knew about his lustful life, he confessed on TV and still he was ahead on polls. However, the most powerful wanted him out - don't forget france is full of bigots and jealous people.
"Unless the Israeli Left would vote for a Christian individual."
Oh come on, they'd run to vote for a palestinian first.
Hello Max,
ReplyDeleteI commend you for the introduction: very well crafted.
It is true that it is impossible for the Church not to interfere with the State, for the very reasons you presented us (our religious, or spiritual, education will influence the way we think and our demeanour before life and affairs).
The US are a very interesting nation, with principles that I very much admire however they do seem to put religion and politics in the same plate, and that can be a very dangerous thing. Besides, based on that mix they may fail to elect a good president (an example of that was president Bush - a Christian, if not evangelical).
Portugal and France are latin countries that present a very ambiguous behaviour. Portugal claims to be laic yet the church and the Opus Dei run the bloody country (if you do not belong to, or have a good relationship with, OD or to any other group related to them you get nowhere). France pretends to be laic (and they do put a lot of effort in trying to prove it: ban on wearing scarves, burkas, kippot, David stars, crosses etc) and then their holidays are mainly Catholic. Plus, the OD also runs that place.
England has no separation between state and church (being the Queen the head of the Church) and yet the country's secularism is upheld. The same goes for the nations you mentioned. Of course I would like to add Marocco cause it is beginning to put forward some interesting reforms that will eventually balance religious values with secular way of life.
Excellent article!!
Tchau
Max, since Plato's Laws was between me and the keyboard when I checked what you wrote, here is the beginning:
ReplyDelete"Athenian Stranger: Tell me, Strangers, is a God or some man supposed to be the author of your laws?
Cleinas: A God, Stranger; in very truth a God: among us Cretans he is said to have been Zeus, but in Lacedaemon, whence our friend here comes, I believe they would say that Apollo is their lawgiver: would they not, Megillus?
Megillus: Certainly."
I am wondering who the nut was that first imagined that religion could be separated from state.
While agreeing very much with your two points, I will ask what you think of a third: Those who profess one religion but believe and practice a different one. President Jefferson was famously schizophrenic on religion, and I just slapped my fingers so that they wouldn't type too much about some of our more recent ones. My religion commands me to honor our leaders!
Hi Kalyan :D!
ReplyDelete"To begin with religion is a way of life but has somehow become the most controversial things in our life as more and more branches of religion get carved out and the members of all fight for supremacy to showcase their religion as the best."
Agreed.
"(..) the Governments in order to cling on to power somehow has generally been seen to be appeasing minorities which are generally small groups and can be influenced easily"
Touché!! "clinging on to power" is the key expression.
"(..) the government tries the other way to also not to distance them and in this way the Government directly or indirectly gets involved in meddling in religious affairs as each religious group try to get the best package out from any government, as one of the main objectives of any religion is to attract as many members as possible to its fold."
So true.
"To me religious activities should not be funded by the State, but it should be left to the individual and the communities and then only their can be separation between the State and Religious groups."
Well put, although even then separation of church and state would still be a fantasy, since religious groups do influence people's thoughts and demeanour.
Kalyan, superb comment for which I thank you immensely :D.
Cheers
Ana,
ReplyDelete"President Obama is not black nor "black", he is a mulatto. I don't know where people got the notion that mixed individuals and black people are the same thing - they're obviously not, in so many ways."
LOL ok, Ana...you are right (I have even had this debate with a friend, LS, a few years ago). However, people in the US call him black, so what are we going to do: educate the Americans? And while we're at it; educate the Black Africans (both in Africa and the diaspora)? They also say that mulattoes and blacks are the same (I have heard it, personally, when I lived in Africa).
"And then, because people think Pres. Obama is black some "African" American groups are putting pressure on him to solve "black problems"...do white Americans succeed only because they had several white presidents? Would Jewish Americans be more successful with a Jewish President? It doesn't make much sense, Max."
You are right, it doesn't make much sense; but you know people: a "brother" should always give the "brothers" a hand. Little do they know, that we are all brothers, no matter the shade of our skin.
"Do you really think it would work? Yes, Jorge Sampaio's grandmother was Jewish and you know that by the law of return he could be an Israeli if he wanted to."
If the community doesn't try, we will never know for sure. His grandmother may have been Jewish, but he claimed to be agnostic (although he seemed to kneel before Pope John Paul II), so I don't know.
"I am telling you it was because he was a Jew.The french knew about his lustful life, he confessed on TV and still he was ahead on polls. However, the most powerful wanted him out - don't forget france is full of bigots and jealous people."
I still think it was because he leads a promiscuous life which served his political foes well. Yes, I am aware of the French people (whom I love deeply); however I think this whole affair had more to do with political strategy than anything else.
"Oh come on, they'd run to vote for a palestinian first."
LOL LOL I wouldn't go that far; but I hear you.
Ana, you kill me!
Hi Celeste :D!
ReplyDelete"I commend you for the introduction: very well crafted."
Why, thank you *bowing*.
"The US are a very interesting nation, with principles that I very much admire however they do seem to put religion and politics in the same plate, and that can be a very dangerous thing. Besides, based on that mix they may fail to elect a good president (an example of that was president Bush - a Christian, if not evangelical)."
I so know what you mean. I believe President Bush was evangelical, but I am not sure either (I am sure though that he reached out to the evangelicals). What do you think about Candidate Perry?
"Portugal claims to be laic yet the church and the Opus Dei run the bloody country (if you do not belong to, or have a good relationship with, OD or to any other group related to them you get nowhere). France pretends to be laic (and they do put a lot of effort in trying to prove it: ban on wearing scarves, burkas, kippot, David stars, crosses etc) and then their holidays are mainly Catholic. Plus, the OD also runs that place."
Indeed, the OD is quite powerful in Portugal, France and Spain (I would even dare throwing in Italy into this little list).
"England has no separation between state and church (being the Queen the head of the Church) and yet the country's secularism is upheld. The same goes for the nations you mentioned. Of course I would like to add Marocco cause it is beginning to put forward some interesting reforms that will eventually balance religious values with secular way of life."
True. I nearly included Morocco in my list however I am still waiting to see how the reforms will unfold; how things will progress.
"Excellent article!!"
Thank you *bowing*!
Celeste, wonderful comment for which I thank you a million times :D. Always a pleasure.
Cheers
Hey Looney :D!
ReplyDelete«"Athenian Stranger: Tell me, Strangers, is a God or some man supposed to be the author of your laws?
Cleinas: A God, Stranger; in very truth a God: among us Cretans he is said to have been Zeus, but in Lacedaemon, whence our friend here comes, I believe they would say that Apollo is their lawgiver: would they not, Megillus?
Megillus: Certainly."»
Wonderful dialogue, thank you for sharing it.
"I am wondering who the nut was that first imagined that religion could be separated from state."
lol I am wondering the same, Looney.
"While agreeing very much with your two points, I will ask what you think of a third: Those who profess one religion but believe and practice a different one. President Jefferson was famously schizophrenic on religion, and I just slapped my fingers so that they wouldn't type too much about some of our more recent ones. My religion commands me to honor our leaders!"
One who professes one religion but believe and practice a different one...not unusual. The question is: with what purpose? And if we analyse it deeply we will reach the conclusion that it is for the exactly same reasons many profess any religion...
lol lol....you do well to honour your leaders *bowing*.
Looney, outstanding thoughts: thank you so much for sharing them with us :D.
Cheers
Hey Max! Back here, they say that too. The church is not to interfere with the state. But if you will look at it, every move the state makes they have to think of what will the church say first. The church says the same thing; they are not interfering with the state but when it comes to reproductive health and divorce talks, they threaten the state. It only boils down to one thing, being a catholic country, the people listen to the church more. If the state contradicts the church they will lose their voters. So sad but true.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I'm good and I hope you are too. I miss you sweetie and I'm sorry for not visiting you.
Take care!
Kisses and hugs.
Hey Max hope you've had a nice summer season!
ReplyDeletestate diff from church. of course one can never distinguish where the limits are, our decisions are made upon our environment, so what to do? we know that in terms of power, there are always lobbying affecting each other decisions (specially state decisions) it doesn't matter if the influence comes from pharma, military industry, general commodities, sports or markets. Our freedom depends on the degree of dependency of each other. In the Portuguese nation form, it took place the dependency from the church... D. Afonso Henriques exchanged gold for international nation recognition.... now you still have somehow this exchanges, the players may vary....
all the best
Gallardo
Hey Liza,
ReplyDelete"The church is not to interfere with the state. But if you will look at it, every move the state makes they have to think of what will the church say first. The church says the same thing; they are not interfering with the state but when it comes to reproductive health and divorce talks, they threaten the state."
True, true. Excellent point!
"It only boils down to one thing, being a catholic country, the people listen to the church more. If the state contradicts the church they will lose their voters. So sad but true."
*nodding in agreement* very well put...
"Anyway, I'm good and I hope you are too. I miss you sweetie and I'm sorry for not visiting you."
I am superb, darling! I miss you too and you do not have to apologise cause you have two cuties to marvel at now ;)!
Liza, thank you ever so much for you superb comment (I loved it) :D.
Kisses, hugs and cheers
Hi G :D!
ReplyDelete"Hey Max hope you've had a nice summer season!"
I did, thank you :). I hope you had an enjoyable summer too.
"state diff from church. of course one can never distinguish where the limits are, our decisions are made upon our environment, so what to do? we know that in terms of power, there are always lobbying affecting each other decisions (specially state decisions) it doesn't matter if the influence comes from pharma, military industry, general commodities, sports or markets."
That is also true. And sometimes that lobbying is even more abusive (and detrimental to people) than church (today's church, I mean).
"Our freedom depends on the degree of dependency of each other."
Beautifully said, man! Indeed, indeed...
"D. Afonso Henriques exchanged gold for international nation recognition.... now you still have somehow this exchanges, the players may vary...."
lol lol ohhhh, I so know what you mean! This part of the comment would've fit perfectly in this week's post "The UN Precedent"....marvellous *applauding*.
Gallardo, man...oh man...outstanding comment: thank you ever so much (it is always a pleasure to hear from you) :D.
Cheers
The hot topic, always, Downunder in regards to politics and religion is funding for schools. State schools and their supporters always cry foul that certain quarters, us catholics especially, recieve far more than them.
ReplyDeleteI suppose its to offset the high school fees of religious type schools, whereas, not that it happens, they aren't supposed to pay any.
Nothing is free, and no one is free from redicule, contempt and jealousy, to name just a few, if the other party thinks they're getting a raw deal.
Take Care,
Peter
Hi Peter :D!
ReplyDelete"The hot topic, always, Downunder in regards to politics and religion is funding for schools. State schools and their supporters always cry foul that certain quarters, us catholics especially, recieve far more than them."
In Ireland, that topic is also hot...
"I suppose its to offset the high school fees of religious type schools, whereas, not that it happens, they aren't supposed to pay any."
*nodding in agreement*...
"Nothing is free, and no one is free from redicule, contempt and jealousy, to name just a few, if the other party thinks they're getting a raw deal."
That is true, Peter: nothing is free. Hah, touché!!
Peter, marvellous comment: thank you so much :D.
Cheers
What a wonderful article! I always dream of a future where religion is non-existent and in its stead a society based on love, equality and humanism.
ReplyDeleteHi Charles :D!
ReplyDelete"What a wonderful article! I always dream of a future where religion is non-existent and in its stead a society based on love, equality and humanism."
Thank you *bowing*. Religion will never cease to exist (besides it is needed); nevertheless, it can (and it should) undergo reform so that we can have a society based on love, equality and humanism :D.
Charles, superb comment for which I thank you :D.
Cheers
I was reading an article in a magazine regarding this issue and I was really engrossed with this quote: More God. Less religion.
ReplyDeleteCharlies,
ReplyDelete"I was reading an article in a magazine regarding this issue and I was really engrossed with this quote: More God. Less religion."
I wish the world would give in to God more (and His love) and less to the politics of religion.
Thank you so much for this marvellous quote :D.
Cheers