- Get link
- Other Apps
Adultery: “The act of sexual intercourse when it involves someone who is married and a person that they are not married to.” (Source: The Cobuild English Dictionary)
When a marriage is adulterated (i.e. poor in quality, weak) is adultery necessary or reproachable still?
I know, I know…it is a dreadful theme to start the year with; however I thought that since I would have to address the issue someday, I might as well do it now…
A marriage is more than a legal contract between two people: it is an agreement of sentiments, commitment, compromise, companionship, loyalty, fidelity, and codes.
If a couple is having what is considered, by most, a good marriage and suddenly one of the spouses has a secret affair, then not only the flesh is being swapped but also (and specially) the sentiment, intimacy, bond (and all the other elements described above) are being utterly betrayed.
I wonder if people realise that when making love to their spouses a field of intimacy is activated: the combination of body fluids and climax sounds; the exchange of words of love and coital codes; the sharing of a few seconds of apotheosized pleasure; kisses, caresses, eye contact…all leading to the depths of each other’s soul…
It may seem hard to accept, or even understand, but there are couples that inexplicably deactivate their field of intimacy…this is adultery.
Then we have couples whose marriage has become adulterated (we can even say: sour), and for their own reasons don’t get a divorce, decide to make an agreement between themselves: they will see other people, as long as they are discreet (in order not to smear the family’s image).
In this case there is no betrayal to speak of. And since they both know what the other is doing, the elements of the marriage remain intact:
When a marriage is adulterated (i.e. poor in quality, weak) is adultery necessary or reproachable still?
I know, I know…it is a dreadful theme to start the year with; however I thought that since I would have to address the issue someday, I might as well do it now…
A marriage is more than a legal contract between two people: it is an agreement of sentiments, commitment, compromise, companionship, loyalty, fidelity, and codes.
If a couple is having what is considered, by most, a good marriage and suddenly one of the spouses has a secret affair, then not only the flesh is being swapped but also (and specially) the sentiment, intimacy, bond (and all the other elements described above) are being utterly betrayed.
I wonder if people realise that when making love to their spouses a field of intimacy is activated: the combination of body fluids and climax sounds; the exchange of words of love and coital codes; the sharing of a few seconds of apotheosized pleasure; kisses, caresses, eye contact…all leading to the depths of each other’s soul…
It may seem hard to accept, or even understand, but there are couples that inexplicably deactivate their field of intimacy…this is adultery.
Then we have couples whose marriage has become adulterated (we can even say: sour), and for their own reasons don’t get a divorce, decide to make an agreement between themselves: they will see other people, as long as they are discreet (in order not to smear the family’s image).
In this case there is no betrayal to speak of. And since they both know what the other is doing, the elements of the marriage remain intact:
- Sentiments: the couple share their feelings and design a plan upon them.
- Commitment: the couple is committed in saving the integrity of the family.
- Compromise: the couple realises that for them to be happy together, they need to “go” separate ways.
- Loyalty: the couple remains loyal to the first thing that brought them together - pheromones.
- Fidelity: the couple remains firm in their friendship for each other.
- Codes: they have designed new ones.
- Intimacy: re-designed.
- Bond: tighter for the sake of the family.
In my opinion there is no adultery here, only an adulterated marriage concept.
The Scriptures say, “You shall not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14).
But if a spouse sees its marital rights denied, is adultery necessary or reproachable still?
Comments
Post a Comment
Dissecting Society™ welcomes all sorts of comments, as we are strong advocates of freedom of speech; however, we reserve the right to delete Troll Activity; libellous and offensive comments (e.g. racist and anti-Semitic) plus those with excessive foul language. This blog does not view vulgarity as being protected by the right to free speech. Cheers
Hmmmm...I think that no matter what, even though both parties know that the other is seeing somebody else, it's still considered a breach of marriage. After all, if you're married, ideally speaking, you're supposed to do whatever you can to make sure that the marriage is going strong. Isn't that why they got married in the first place?
ReplyDeletePlus the commitment in a marriage is supposed to be between the two people to stay loyal to each other.
Interesting topic indeed...I'll add more when I think of something he he...
Hello Amelia!!
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for your opinion on this issue (which is a very difficult one); I appreciate it *bow*!
"Hmmmm...I think that no matter what, even though both parties know that the other is seeing somebody else, it's still considered a breach of marriage." - but if the marriage lacks sentiment, and still the two remain married...do you believe that neither of them should ever have their sexual needs met again?
"After all, if you're married, ideally speaking, you're supposed to do whatever you can to make sure that the marriage is going strong." - I agree, once you get married you have the obligation to do whatever you can to keep the marriage strong; however what should one do when everything has been done, and still the marriage doesn't work? Should one become a nun/priest (Catholic concept, obviously) within marriage?
"Isn't that why they got married in the first place?" - there are many reasons why people get married; but ideally (as you said) people get married for love, companionship and all the other elements I spoke of in the article.
"Plus the commitment in a marriage is supposed to be between the two people to stay loyal to each other." - but there are several types of loyalty. One can be loyal and be unfaithful; and be faithful and be disloyal...
Thank you so much for your input, girl :D!
Cheers
Hello Max!
ReplyDeleteAh the joy of Tuesday’s, when the new MAXims are delivered… :)
Max my friend would you please enlighten us as to the art you have chosen for this article?
I thank you for venturing into such a delicate topic….
It seems by the dictionary meaning you have provided for us that President Clinton may then have not committed adultery since allegedly there was no intercourse, and of course he also did not inhale….LOL
I note this definition would include a person that is raped as an adulterer since it says nothing of voluntary intercourse…I believe this would agree with Islamic Sharia law….Personally I think this is a poor definition of adultery…And since you like a hearty conversation this may be why you chose it LOL LOL
You said:
When a marriage is adulterated (i.e. poor in quality, weak) is adultery necessary or reproachable still?
I know, I know…it is a dreadful theme to start the year with; however I thought that since I would have to address the issue someday, I might as well do it now…
I respond:
In my previous marriage before being a Jesus follower my wife and I repeatedly brought other women into the bed as a third sexual partner, we both committed adultery “together”, evil, sin.
As you used Scripture in the article and the rest of my comment comes primarily from one particular source I think it appropriate to include it here to aid communication…
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
- - Matthew 5:27-30 (TNIV) Jesus speaking
Clearly adultery is very serious, a sin…
The terms adultery and lust are also often used in Scripture in reference to Israel turning from their relationship with God to false gods and idols…
I am curious as to why you said “since I would have to address the issue someday”. As you are getting married (congratulations *BIG happy smile*) it seems by the wording you see adultery as inevitable (I sure hope not). But you do not say “may have to address”, now of course you could simply mean address as in write an article about it (smile) or you may mean that since lust is inevitable then this is an appropriate topic…. I am guessing you mean write an article…
You said:
A marriage is more than a legal contract between two people: it is an agreement of sentiments, commitment, compromise, companionship, loyalty, fidelity, and codes.
I respond:
Max I am quite surprised you didn’t say anything about “one flesh”, Scripture repeatedly tells us that marriage is the two (one male and one female) becoming “one flesh” to the exclusion of all others. You sort of seem to skirt around it….on purpose to make conversation?
You said:
If a couple is having what is considered, by most, a good marriage and suddenly one of the spouses has a secret affair, then not only the flesh is being swapped but also (and specially) the sentiment, intimacy, bond (and all the other elements described above) are being utterly betrayed.
I respond:
Are you inferring to the one flesh by “the flesh is being swapped”? This kind of betrayal, attack on trust, and horrid sin is very ugly indeed….
You said:
I wonder if people realise that when making love to their spouses a field of intimacy is activated: the combination of body fluids and climax sounds; the exchange of words of love and coital codes; the sharing of a few seconds of apotheosized pleasure; kisses, caresses, eye contact…all leading to the depths of each other’s soul…
I respond:
Is the “field of intimacy” kind of like shields in Star Trek? Or perhaps t e Romulan cloaking device? LOL LOL I jest Max I like the term…but you know I always try to fit in Star Trek :)
Delicately handled….Is this how you are trying to express “one flesh”? It is a pretty difficult term to beat….
By the way this will fit in nicely with our upcoming Graffiti article…or will it…the suspense mounts….LOL
You said:
It may seem hard to accept, or even understand, but there are couples that inexplicably deactivate their field of intimacy…this is adultery.
I respond:
I am curious as to how you would regard the Scripture I provided in light of your above words…Interesting tie in…Along with your dreaded St. Paul…LOL
You said:
Then we have couples whose marriage has become adulterated (we can even say: sour), and for their own reasons don’t get a divorce, decide to make an agreement between themselves: they will see other people, as long as they are discreet (in order not to smear the family’s image).
In this case there is no betrayal to speak of. And since they both know what the other is doing, the elements of the marriage remain intact:
• Sentiments: the couple share their feelings and design a plan upon them.
• Commitment: the couple is committed in saving the integrity of the family.
• Compromise: the couple realises that for them to be happy together, they need to “go” separate ways.
• Loyalty: the couple remains loyal to the first thing that brought them together - pheromones.
• Fidelity: the couple remains firm in their friendship for each other.
• Codes: they have designed new ones.
• Intimacy: re-designed.
• Bond: tighter for the sake of the family.
In my opinion there is no adultery here, only an adulterated marriage concept.
I respond:
This comes back to what I brought up earlier about my personal history…We did what we did voluntarily, whole heartedly, we actually thought our marriage was healthy since we thought we were happy…. and it was adultery, sin.
The thing is marriage makes us “one flesh” we are not meant to be shared, not even before marriage…those kinds of things militate against God….
There is another aspect that I think you should consider; the fact that since God is part of every marriage as He is the institutor of marriage (yes no matter the belief system), when you commit adultery you are also sinning against God and He is not “ok” with these kinds of “arrangements”, these kinds of plans are war plans against Him….they are sin.
You said:
The Scriptures say, “You shall not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14).
But if a spouse sees its marital rights denied, is adultery necessary or reproachable still?
I respond:
A married couple that tells each other it is ok to sin does not change it from being a sin, they cannot make that delineation, it is God’s prerogative that overrules all…Just because my first wife and I agreed with no coercion to bring other women into our bed does not make it any less of a sin.
The reason we are told this by God is He designed us and loves us, He understands relationships perfectly, and adultery even by mutual agreement goes against God’s plan, it is an act of war against Him….
Marriage is extremely serious and not to be entered lightly…
Max as always a wonderfully produced article…..Next time perhaps you could write something controversial…LOL LOL
I think it's a deal killer.
ReplyDelete~Oswegan
Hi Max, boy you got lot of intimacy going on here, lol. I hate to tell you, but I am not good if comes to topics like that. I told my brother, that if he takes Sex and Marriage course in school, I cannot help him - gear design - yes, lol. However, girl you nailed some really good facts, and I think one day I may open up. Myself, I really belief that marriage is unity of love and family, and there got to be both - at least for me. I always want to have the sense of feeling as we first met and have the same sense of feeling as we get older, and then die - that is to be in love all life. You can still see I live in a dream, but how can you not - its not like the love can be bought in the store. Family is also very important for me, and may be I will be living another dream as we expand one day. If comes to adultery, I just don't want to think about it, I think it would take my dreams away from me forever.
ReplyDeleteSo Max, since you will be getting married soon, you ask your readers and I think you ask yourself many questions too (I could be wrong), but what I see that you take marriage very seriously, and you need to know. BTW when is the big day?
Also thanks for the Xmas wishes. You are just in time, I don't expect everyone to remember, as I tried to celebrate the first one too with everyone else. Since everyone needs to go to work, we don't make huge event, it is more of getting with immediate family and attending more church. Which is nice, just like meditation, and time to reflect, and time to bring good memories more on the individual bases. Thanks again for your wishes Max, and excellent topic as always. Anna :) Say Hi to your Mom!
Max,
ReplyDeleteLet's dig in.
"When a marriage is adulterated (i.e. poor in quality, weak) is adultery necessary or reproachable still?"
Absolutely not! There is no feasible excuse for adultery. We hear all the time that man is not monogamous, that he/we should have as many partners as possible, but if that were the case then no marriages would ever work. Some people compare man to the animal kingdom, but we cannot compare civilized human beings to the animal kingdom; i.e. the lion who mates up to 50 times a day or the bonobo who has sex all day.
Only 3-5 % of the mammals are known to form lifelong pair bonds, like beavers, otters, jackals, foxes, some bats and a few dwarf deer and antelopes.
Strict monogamy is almost nonexistent in the animal kingdom, as creatures that do pair for life, occasionally have flings on the side. Go figure.
A male prairie vole will prefer to mate exclusively with the first female in which he loses his virginity. A mated male vole will actually attack other females who approach him.
Back to people. I think a real marriage is a comprised of two Souls who have set out to sea and they have to learn to sink or swim. They learn to swim with or against the tide and in doing that they learn to rely on each other to keep them afloat. That's when the life preserver of love comes in. Love keeps them above water and together they sail through.
"I wonder if people realise that when making love to their spouses a field of intimacy is activated: the combination of body fluids and climax sounds; the exchange of words of love and coital codes; the sharing of a few seconds of apotheosized pleasure; kisses, caresses, eye contact…all leading to the depths of each other’s soul."
That's real poetry in motion. The movement and the rhythm of body...mind...spirit...the shift in consciousness and the strengthening of that inner connection.
"It may seem hard to accept, or even understand, but there are couples that inexplicably deactivate their field of intimacy…this is adultery."
Very well articulated. Intimacy is an activation of energy fields and a sensitivity to one's spouse/partner. To disrespect that bond is to deactivate one's intimacy.
"Then we have couples whose marriage has become adulterated (we can even say: sour), and for their own reasons don’t get a divorce, decide to make an agreement between themselves: they will see other people, as long as they are discreet (in order not to smear the family’s image)."
I know this happens a lot in Hollywood with power couples and even the British royal family. People would rather keep up appearances rather than have the love of the spouse, which is really sad and a degradation of their spiritual worth. They trade love for position, but money can't buy love or class.
This an exceptional post, as always. Well done!
I'm going to respond before I read the other comments because I don't want to lose my train of thought.
ReplyDeleteHere is a couple who are having problems in their marriage. You might liken their problems to a physical wound. It hurts, so they want to try to make it better. But by breaking the emotional bonds with each other, and trying to build those same bonds with someone else, they are just adding salt to the wound. Not only does it not help their marriage become better, it makes their relationship even worse.
Even though they both agree, it is still a betrayal of fidelity. It still breaks the bond of fidelity that was formed at marriage. The word fidelity does not mean "friendship". It means being true to. When a person "cleaves" to someone they are not married to, they are not showing fidelity.
Friendship does not alone equal marriage. Marriage is more than just two people living as friends in the same house.
I disagree that the bond is tighter. In fact, the family will be more in jeopardy because the parents are not totally united.
I say, take all of the effort that they would spend to have an affair and put that effort in to rebuilding the marriage.
Is it adultery? I say, if it walks like a dog, and it barks like a dog..it must be a dog. One could try to rationalize, but if a person is having a physical relationship outside of marriage, it is adultery.
If nothing else, marriage is a sacred "Trust." If there is no trust there is no marriage.
ReplyDeleteIf adultery is necessary or needed, then the marriage should end.
If the issues cannot be worked out, then the marriage should end.
Trust can be lost and also be won back. I do not condemn a person for a single weakness, after all we are all human. But, twice and it is over.
The overlying issue, in my view, is TRUST.
Hello LS!
ReplyDelete"Ah the joy of Tuesday’s, when the new MAXims are delivered… :)" - LOL LOL LOL ok, isn't Maxim a trashy guys magazine *puzzled face* LOL? Knowing you, I better put on some music so that I can cope with your kind comment lol :)....some Kizomba is in order...
"Max my friend would you please enlighten us as to the art you have chosen for this article?" - certainly, my friend: this is Caravaggio's "Sleeping Cupid". I used it as to say that the way things are going between people and their relationships, cupid must be sleeping (of course, others would say that he is dead) *nodding*.
"It seems by the dictionary meaning you have provided for us that President Clinton may then have not committed adultery since allegedly there was no intercourse, and of course he also did not inhale….LOL" - LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL *nodding*...shocking, LS...shocking...
"I note this definition would include a person that is raped as an adulterer since it says nothing of voluntary intercourse…I believe this would agree with Islamic Sharia law….Personally I think this is a poor definition of adultery…And since you like a hearty conversation this may be why you chose it LOL LOL" - LOL LOL my dear LS, are you trying to do linguistic gymnastics here LOL? :) I have another definition of adultery "extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations", of course this definition could bring other questions "what if the extramarital sex does not maliciosuly interfere with marriage relations? Is it ok to commit adultery?" LOL..sooo, I guess I do like a hearty conversation lol. The most proper definition would've been "voluntary sexual between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse" but then it wouldn't have been so interesting, would've :)?
"In my previous marriage before being a Jesus follower my wife and I repeatedly brought other women into the bed as a third sexual partner, we both committed adultery “together”, evil, sin." - :0 ! Ok, we know that your CV is impregnated by the word "sex" in every of its section (Education, Professional experience, Language proficiency and Hobbies) but please, there was no need to be that descriptive (I think we all had understood from your words "I have had multiple partners and sometimes simultaneously" that it meant engaging in threesomes or foursomes lol)...As I have told you before: I am glad you saw the light! One should be generous and share stuff with others, but sex and altruism do not go well together LOL *nodding*. I leave the judging part to you; it is not my place to judge you nor your ex-wife.
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.- - Matthew 5:27-30 (TNIV)" - of course Jesus is saying that the step between thinking of committing adultery and actually doing it is extremely short. This is what one would call yielding to desires, lust, temptations. Now, Jesus said it is best to cut the right hand and throw it away if one thinks of sinning: did you cut yours? Do people cut theirs? Or is this valid only for those who sin after becoming Followers of Jesus?
"Clearly adultery is very serious, a sin…" - one has to go deeper than that; one cannot just look at what the word and the act itself. We need to read into the depths of adultery... we need to go beyond the physical part. If a couple does not fulfill the marital right with each other (for years) they are now like sexless friends, and engage in extra-marital relationships...is this considered adultery? If a couple is legally married, have sex only once and realise that they are more friends than a couple (but remain married), if they see other people...is this still adultery? If a man marries a woman, and one of them is gay but they remain married...do you think that the heterosexual spouse should remain sexless? Adultery raises a lot of questions; it is not enough to say "It is a sin"; because even divorce is not seen with good eyes (in Christianity)...what should a Christian do in this cases?
"The terms adultery and lust are also often used in Scripture in reference to Israel turning from their relationship with God to false gods and idols…" - Yes, true. And why? Because God knows humans will commit adultery (it is the same as "you shall not kill": He was not expecting humans not to do it, but yes present a deterrent for it; it is the same with adultery...God doesn't want people to do it just like that, yet He knows they will do it), and since He is Merciful He might forgive them. However He will not forgive humans for not following Him, for worshipping false gods...this latter is the biggest sin of them all.
"I am curious as to why you said “since I would have to address the issue someday”. As you are getting married (congratulations *BIG happy smile*) it seems by the wording you see adultery as inevitable (I sure hope not). But you do not say “may have to address”, now of course you could simply mean address as in write an article about it (smile) or you may mean that since lust is inevitable then this is an appropriate topic…. I am guessing you mean write an article…" - LOL LOL *nodding*...thank you, LS *bowing while smirking*! No, I don't see adultery as inevitable (since we are more than just animals, we have the power to resist to whatever when we're strong enough); but I don't live my life looking at my own navel...I always look around, I observe people (that's what I do) and I see that adultery is always hovering over couples (for many reasons).
This article is not about me, nor about my personal beliefs nor thoughts about it; this article is about life, people.
"Max I am quite surprised you didn’t say anything about “one flesh”, Scripture repeatedly tells us that marriage is the two (one male and one female) becoming “one flesh” to the exclusion of all others. You sort of seem to skirt around it….on purpose to make conversation?" - I didn't speak of "one flesh" because I am not trying to romanticise marriage. Not everybody gets married to become one with their spouse (becoming one with one's spouse is not literally physical, as you know; it is a soul connection that goes beyond physical death, and this doesn't occur to everyone); not everybody marries for love...as I told Amelia, there are several reasons as to why people get married.
But let's look at this from another angle: "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh" (Genesis 2:24), yes; I am quite aware of the Scriptures. However, we all know that women (and rarely men) are often forced to get married to men (or women, in the case of men) they don't love...do they consider themselves one flesh with their spouses? I doubt it...
"Are you inferring to the one flesh by “the flesh is being swapped”? This kind of betrayal, attack on trust, and horrid sin is very ugly indeed…." - I am talking about both: one flesh and flesh. It is the highest form of betrayal; for one heartfully makes the vows, one promises before God and Men that he/she will honour that person; the other strongly believes in these vows, promises, words and then when the betrayal occurs they feel their heart being stabbed over and over again *nodding*. Of course this only applies to those marriages where the couple loves each other (cause as I said there are several reasons why people get married).
"Is the “field of intimacy” kind of like shields in Star Trek? Or perhaps t e Romulan cloaking device? LOL LOL I jest Max I like the term…but you know I always try to fit in Star Trek :)" - LOL LOL LOL I know, you are a Star Trek fan; don't worry :).
"Delicately handled….Is this how you are trying to express “one flesh”? It is a pretty difficult term to beat…." - yes, in this section I am talking about the one flesh (which doesn't happen to everybody).
"By the way this will fit in nicely with our upcoming Graffiti article…or will it…the suspense mounts….LOL" - LOL in fact when I wrote this particular section I was thinking about our upcoming Graffiti article...it will be smashing...can you imagine? Ok, let us hush for now LOL...
"I am curious as to how you would regard the Scripture I provided in light of your above words…Interesting tie in…Along with your dreaded St. Paul…LOL" - LOL LOL you must be thinking "Max has gone mad! She believes in God and in the OT; but this is so anti-Scripture!", but Max replies "The world is full of people who have never read the Scripture, and this is MAX not Life On The Blade!" LOL :).
I am aware of what the Scriptures say about adultery, and what God commanded us to do; however the Scriptures are too linear and superficial about the theme. I want to know what God meant exactly by adultery (God is very complex, and I am sure He meant more than what it is written). He said that couples must not sleep with other people, which is a commandment; but was it because it is dangerous for our energetic field? Was it because it brings diseases? Was it because feelings are a very dangerous thing to play with (jealousy,for example, can lead to terrible disruptions or even crimes)? Was God trying to warn us about the consequences of committing adultery more than the act itself? This is what I am expecting to learn from all your comments... :)
(note how I ignore the provocatory mentioning of the Inflamatory P lol, although I have some good notes already to use on your future article on him)
"This comes back to what I brought up earlier about my personal history…We did what we did voluntarily, whole heartedly, we actually thought our marriage was healthy since we thought we were happy…. and it was adultery, sin." - well, as I said I leave the judgement to you; it is not my place to discuss your personal life, nor judge you and your ex-wife. But my article did not mention threesomes; it was referring to a couple who got married (for a particular reason: either love or business...who knows) and suddenly realise that they have become friends but won't divorce (again for their own reasons); they agree that they'll discreetly see other people (outside their home, to preserve the concept of family)...in this case there is no betrayal of sentiments nor of any other element of the marital agreement. If a couple doesn't fulfill their marital rights with each other, is it still adultery to see other people?
"The thing is marriage makes us “one flesh” we are not meant to be shared, not even before marriage…those kinds of things militate against God…." - I agree that when people become one, that unity is not meant to be shared.
Well, being virgin before marriage is very good if one gets married at the age of 16-19 (which is mad: children are to study first); but after that it is a crime to remain a virgin if a person doesn't find the right man to marry with. And I am saying man, because we all know that virginity is imposed on women (in most cultures; cause for example, I know that the Jewish Orthodox get married as virgins, both men and women). Everybody knows that women who stay virgin after 25 years old become crazy. What militates against God is being evil at heart, jealous, murderers, gossipers, foul-mouthed, abusive, obscene, petty, self-centred, low-life SOD...
"There is another aspect that I think you should consider; the fact that since God is part of every marriage as He is the institutor of marriage (yes no matter the belief system), when you commit adultery you are also sinning against God and He is not “ok” with these kinds of “arrangements”, these kinds of plans are war plans against Him….they are sin." - God is part of marriages He has personally planned. Nowadays people are in such a hurry to get married that they end up with the wrong person...what if God makes arrangements for the right couple to meet (while still married)? This is not impossible...and if there are children involved, God knows the effect that it will have on them, and decides to spare them by maintaining their parents marriage but only joining the couple He had planned in the first place.
"A married couple that tells each other it is ok to sin does not change it from being a sin, they cannot make that delineation, it is God’s prerogative that overrules all…Just because my first wife and I agreed with no coercion to bring other women into our bed does not make it any less of a sin." - But God also said that marital rights should be met, didn't He? What if marital rights are not met? You didn't answer my question...
"The reason we are told this by God is He designed us and loves us, He understands relationships perfectly, and adultery even by mutual agreement goes against God’s plan, it is an act of war against Him…." - then if we follow your line of thought people who marry the wrong person are going against God's plan as well. What if God decides to make things right?
"Marriage is extremely serious and not to be entered lightly…" - I utterly agree with you, and that is why I think that people shouldn't rush off into marriage before thinking if that person is really the one, if he/she is IT or not. But unfortunately people choose illy whom they get married to. If people choose right, they won't have to commit adultery: as you said it is about following God's plan (when He makes a match people must be patient enough to follow)!
"Max as always a wonderfully produced article…..Next time perhaps you could write something controversial…LOL LOL " - LOL LOL thank you, LS *bowing*. I do try to be controversial but I haven't been too successful LOL LOL :).
Thanks for your comment,, my friend, it was delightful :)!
Cheers
Hello Scott,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your input :D! Indeed, it can be "a deal killer" (depending on what sort of marriage one has...)!
Cheers
Hello Anna!
ReplyDelete"boy you got lot of intimacy going on here, lol. " - LOL I hope I didn't shock you...I tend to do that sometimes (shock people)!
"I hate to tell you, but I am not good if comes to topics like that. I told my brother, that if he takes Sex and Marriage course in school, I cannot help him - gear design - yes, lol." - LOL that was a good one *nodding*. Gear design must be incredibly interesting :). It is quite all right, Anna...I know it is heavy material :).
I know what you mean: when a person is totally in love with her spouse, and lives a dreamy life (in terms of intimacy and loyalty) one tends to do whatever she can to keep it, and not think about things that can ruin the dream. I would dare saying that you and your husband are a match made in Heaven, and that you need not to worry cause when a match is made by God adultery is not necessary, not even crosses the mind of the couple :D!
Family is extremely important, and if you ask me: it is sacred!
"So Max, since you will be getting married soon, you ask your readers and I think you ask yourself many questions too (I could be wrong), but what I see that you take marriage very seriously, and you need to know. BTW when is the big day?" - darling, I take marriage extremely seriously. I wouldn't get married if I weren't absolutely sure about the man I will get married to :). These questions have nothing to do with me though; they are fruit of things that I observe in life and I just wished to bring it to the arena: you know that is what MAX is all about LOL :). Max will marry in August :)...
You are welcome :)! Uuff, I thought to myself "Max, I can't believe you!! You forgot about the Orthodox Christmas" *nodding*...I was quite embarrassed...but I am glad I was in time :).
Time to reflect...that is what people should do more: reflect (that way they wouldn't do so many silly things in this world *nodding*).
Don't mention it, girl :)! Thanks, I will tell her you said Hi (She'll like it) :D!
Thanks for your comment: it was swell :)!
Cheers
Alexys,
ReplyDeleteHello, dear!!
"Let's dig in." - LOL I like this LOL...
"Absolutely not! There is no feasible excuse for adultery. We hear all the time that man is not monogamous, that he/we should have as many partners as possible, but if that were the case then no marriages would ever work." - I don't believe that men cannot be monogamous either: it is silly! It is a sexist concept invented by a sexist womanizer *nodding*. So you say that there is not excuse for adultery, I agree! But what if the couple doesn't have sex with each other (but decide to not divorce, for some reason)... are their extra-marital relatioships still considered adultery?
"Some people compare man to the animal kingdom, but we cannot compare civilized human beings to the animal kingdom; i.e. the lion who mates up to 50 times a day or the bonobo who has sex all day." - of course we can't compare civilised people to animals; I agree!! We are more than that, that is why we have Reason. Having sex all day would be a tragedy for us...can you imagine? The body wouldn't take it...*nodding*...plus we gotta other things to do: work, read, nails, brows, hair etc LOL LOL...(a small joke)...
"Only 3-5 % of the mammals are known to form lifelong pair bonds, like beavers, otters, jackals, foxes, some bats and a few dwarf deer and antelopes." - that is interesting; I didn't know....
"Strict monogamy is almost nonexistent in the animal kingdom, as creatures that do pair for life, occasionally have flings on the side. Go figure." - that is God saying "if it is possible for animals, it is also for you guys!".
"A male prairie vole will prefer to mate exclusively with the first female in which he loses his virginity. A mated male vole will actually attack other females who approach him." - oh my...I am glad we don't do that! Can you imagine? What if a man would marry the first woman he'd lose his virginity with and then find out he doesn't love her? How terrible...
"Back to people. I think a real marriage is a comprised of two Souls who have set out to sea and they have to learn to sink or swim. They learn to swim with or against the tide and in doing that they learn to rely on each other to keep them afloat. That's when the life preserver of love comes in. Love keeps them above water and together they sail through." - this is beautiful, Alexys :), and I totally agree. But what if the couple who got married doesn't love each other from the start? What if they married for other reasons (business etc) and can't divorce themselves? Isn't this couple in its full right to seek to keep afloat while making some compromises?
"That's real poetry in motion. The movement and the rhythm of body...mind...spirit...the shift in consciousness and the strengthening of that inner connection." - thank you *bowing*! This is what I think a real marriage is all about; but I also know that it is very hard to find this kind of relationship, connection...people are not patient enough when looking for a husband/wife *nodding*.
"Very well articulated. Intimacy is an activation of energy fields and a sensitivity to one's spouse/partner. To disrespect that bond is to deactivate one's intimacy." - Amen :)!
"I know this happens a lot in Hollywood with power couples and even the British royal family. People would rather keep up appearances rather than have the love of the spouse, which is really sad and a degradation of their spiritual worth." - when love wasn't there from the start it is a bit difficult for them to love their spouses *nodding*. This reminds me of Princesses who got married (by force) to really old Kings and Lords, and then had their young lovers...were they wrong in doing so?
"They trade love for position, but money can't buy love or class." - true!!
My sista, thank you so much for your input: I absolutely loved it! And thanks for your kind words *bowing*!
Cheers
Hey Max, thanks for your comment back and answers as always.
ReplyDeleteYou said: 'It is quite all right, Anna...I know it is heavy material :).' - yes in deed it is heavy material, lol, thanks for understanding.
You said: 'I would dare saying that you and your husband are a match made in Heaven, and that you need not to worry cause when a match is made by God adultery is not necessary, not even crosses the mind of the couple :D!
Family is extremely important, and if you ask me: it is sacred! - hey sometimes I do worry, you know there is always that fear as we get older (especially for us women), but then comes trust. Yes family is sacred, I agree with you.
That is good that marriage is extremely serious thing for you, because there are many just say 'lets get married', and then they find out that they are not compatible and ruin everything, however, sometimes believe or not spontaneous marriages work, just like winning a lottery, it lasts forever. So Max I guess you getting married is not related to the posts, well then you are really good observer. I observe too sometimes, and sometimes I ask hubby what if, but he just so determined, lol, so on the end lets just live a dream and not worry about that stuff. Yes you are real MAX, and you definitely know who you are and what you want in life, go girl go. August, I will them mark my calendar, beautiful month. Mine was June - 10 years ago.
Thanks for the wishes again Max. Aside I will have to make small correction. I am actually Ukrainian Catholic that follow the Gregorian Calendar Jan 7 (same as orthodox), Roman Catholics follow the Julian calendar (Dec 24). So what is the difference - Catholics follow pope, and orthodox do not. So to make it simple Ukr Catholics and Orthodox share the same calendar and architecture (icons, wooden churches, etc), and Ukr Catholics and Roman Catholics share the same pope. Sometimes Ukr Catholics are also called Greek Catholics. Hope you don't mind this small lesson.
Better run again, and do some work (at work lol). Take care, Anna :)
Hello D!
ReplyDelete"I'm going to respond before I read the other comments because I don't want to lose my train of thought." - LOL you do well :). Let's see what you offered us....
"You might liken their problems to a physical wound. It hurts, so they want to try to make it better. But by breaking the emotional bonds with each other, and trying to build those same bonds with someone else, they are just adding salt to the wound." - this wound example is not very strong, cause I could tell you that if the couple would use warm salty water, it would sting (yes, and hurt a bit) but in the end it would cure the wound (meaning they have troubles in their marriage - the wound - but then decide that they work better as friends, and for some reason unknown to us they can't divorce -it hurts to realise that you have made the wrong choice, and now you have no way out...warm salty water stinging - but work out a solution and things; although not perfect in the eyes of those who disagree with it; seem to work for them and they remain in harmony - warm salty water curing the wound...perhaps leaving a scar, but cured). I agree that breaking emotional bonds is a terrible thing to do, just terrible...but what happens when there is no emotional bond to break?
"Not only does it not help their marriage become better, it makes their relationship even worse." - it depends on the point of view (what brought the couple together in the first place; are there any feelings or not; what situation led them to take extreme measures etc).
"Even though they both agree, it is still a betrayal of fidelity. It still breaks the bond of fidelity that was formed at marriage. The word fidelity does not mean "friendship". It means being true to." - It is not a betrayal of fidelity if they have agreed that fidelity between themselves would cease. You can't betray something that doesn't exist. You are right "fidelity means being true" however if their truth is that there won't be fidelity towards each other, they remain faithful to their agreement.
"Friendship does not alone equal marriage. Marriage is more than just two people living as friends in the same house." - this is utterly true; however one must see that there are these types of marriages, they exist; and they won't stop existing just because one doesn't agree with its concept. People get married, then find out they are more friends then spouses, they don't have sex with each other for years; they don't want to divorce, and agree to see other people. Do we have the right to judge these couples?
"I disagree that the bond is tighter. In fact, the family will be more in jeopardy because the parents are not totally united." - the parents are united in their agreement, and in their goal of maintaining the family together. Picture the following scenario: a man is an homosexual, he gets married to camouflage his homosexuality, he and his wife have kids. His wife finds out that he is gay and confronts him with it; the kids are small and they don't want to divorce for their sake. They cease to share the same bed, they remain friends for their kids' sake...years go by, kids get married, they remain together (for their own reasons)...they die. Their kids find out they had separate lives while together...was this couple committing adultery? Was it wrong?
"I say, take all of the effort that they would spend to have an affair and put that effort in to rebuilding the marriage." - sometimes it just isn't possible.
"Is it adultery? I say, if it walks like a dog, and it barks like a dog..it must be a dog. One could try to rationalize, but if a person is having a physical relationship outside of marriage, it is adultery." - Thank you so much for your input, Delirious :)! It was a good comment!!
Cheers
Hello Mel,
ReplyDelete"If nothing else, marriage is a sacred "Trust." If there is no trust there is no marriage." - I agree with you :).
"If adultery is necessary or needed, then the marriage should end." - True too. However there are religions that are against divorce, and people actually abide to it (while committing adultery which is also a sin, according to most religions...what a paradox). But what if they can't divorce, Mel? Should they live a sexless life?
"If the issues cannot be worked out, then the marriage should end." - sometimes it is not that linear...
"Trust can be lost and also be won back. I do not condemn a person for a single weakness, after all we are all human. But, twice and it is over." - *clap clap clap* I loved this :)! So, what if a man/woman doesn't sleep with his/her spouse and then has one lover all his/her life? Is this more admissable?
"The overlying issue, in my view, is TRUST." - :D
Mel, great comment!!! Thank you so much :D!
Cheers
Hey Hey Anna! :D
ReplyDeleteIt is my pleasure; and hey, I should be thanking you for having returned my comment :)!
"yes in deed it is heavy material, lol, thanks for understanding." - lol you are welcome. This is why I wanted to get this issue done with now LOL....
"hey sometimes I do worry, you know there is always that fear as we get older (especially for us women), but then comes trust. Yes family is sacred, I agree with you." - Trust is an important ingredient in relationships, this much I know (that is why I agree with Mel's comment on Trust). Amen :).
Oooh, don't I know that people make the wrong choices *nodding*. I have a friend who got married 9 years ago. Before she did I told her that her fiancé looked a bit suspicious, that his energy wasn't good; she didn't listen...she got divorced a year later; can you believe it *nodding*? Now, that is a sin *nodding*! I believe you when you say that sometimes spontaneous marriages work...it is a questions of being a match made by God or not :).
Nooo, my posts are totally independ from my life, don't worry :). I like observing life and all its actors :D.
Your husband knows the real deal, Anna: just live your love, and forget about the rest :)!
"go girl go. August, I will them mark my calendar, beautiful month. Mine was June - 10 years ago." - I am going, I am going LOL LOL :). At least it is warm..cause I dislike winter :(. June? That is such a romantic month :D! 98'...oh, I was so young by then *nostalgic face* lol lol....
Oh, you are not Orthodox, you are Ukrainian Catholic (but also called Greek)...I apologise! I won't repeat the same mistake :). Ahh, ok...now I got the difference, thanks :)! I don't mind at all: I love learning new things!!! :D Thank you so much for the lesson *bowing*!
Thank you for all the kind words, Anna, you are a doll :D!
Yes, run...but I will see you again (I am on my way to your blog)!
Take care, dear :)
Max quick come back, lol.
ReplyDeleteYou said: June? That is such a romantic month :D! 98'...oh, I was so young by then *nostalgic face* lol lol.... - yeahhhhh me too, lol
Oh, you are not Orthodox, you are Ukrainian Catholic (but also called Greek)...I apologise! I won't repeat the same mistake :). Ahh, ok...now I got the difference, thanks :)! I don't mind at all: I love learning new things!!! :D Thank you so much for the lesson' - hey no need to apologise and you are welcome, I though you may want to know, many few years ago I did not know these facts either, lol.
Your husband knows the real deal, Anna: just live your love, and forget about the rest :)! - yes, and he is the more romantic one too, and me sometimes I wonder, lol.
I will see you then, Anna :)
Anna,
ReplyDeleteI just finished replying to all the comments and mails, now I am ready to visit your blog! But before I go, I will quickly reply to this comment:
"yeahhhhh me too, lol" - LOL LOL :).
"hey no need to apologise and you are welcome, I though you may want to know, many few years ago I did not know these facts either, lol." - You didn't? When did you learn them?
"yes, and he is the more romantic one too, and me sometimes I wonder, lol." - ah, it means nothing; he is Italian it is only natural that he is more romantic...trust me, I know...my fiancé is also more romantic than I am :D! It is pure love :D! We are blessed!
Now I am on my way to "My only photo" lol
Cheers
Hi Max,
ReplyDelete"Having sex all day would be a tragedy for us...can you imagine? The body wouldn't take it...*nodding*...plus we gotta other things to do: work, read, nails, brows, hair etc LOL LOL...(a small joke)"
ROFL (Rolling On FLoor Laughing) How did you know? Nails are so important. I used to do them all day with elaborate colors, now I cut them off because it took too long to do every week and it makes typing difficult.
"What if the couple who got married doesn't love each other from the start? What if they married for other reasons (business etc) and can't divorce themselves? Isn't this couple in its full right to seek to keep afloat while making some compromises?"
The romanticism in me says how sad that couples marry who don't love each other, but the realism in me knows it happens quite often. We make emotional contracts with people all the time, marriage is just one of many. And yes, compromise is the key to staying afloat. Just look at the last 7 letters of "com(promise);" it is a promise, a mutual concession, quid pro quo. Even in compromising, they are still proving that they can be committed to keeping afloat for their agreement.
"It is very hard to find this kind of relationship, connection...people are not patient enough when looking for a husband/wife *nodding*."
So true. So very true. Love is worth waiting for, but so often we change horses in the middle of the stream.
"This reminds me of Princesses who got married (by force) to really old Kings and Lords, and then had their young lovers...were they wrong in doing so?"
I can say a hearty, "No!," as someone who lives in the 21st century, they weren't wrong in doing so, but back then, those princesses were taking their lives in their own hands by being so bold. (to acknowledge their feelings with another one other than their husbands. Henry VIII had Anne Boleyn beheaded. (I must say Anne was ahead of the crowd. ;D)
Thanks for keeping my brain stimulated. :D
Max,
ReplyDeleteI understand the restriction of religion. My answer to that is that one must either live in a sexless marriage or change religions. I feel quite absolute about this.
This may be because that I am Jewish and we have a lot more freedoms in regards to divorce.
To me, trust is absolute in a marriage or else you don't have a marriage.
To answer your comment in regards to once versus twice......once is a single act. However, an affair, even though it is multiple acts, can be viewed as a single occurence if both spouses can agree that there is a problem and work towards resolution and the rebuilding of trust.
Again, "trust" being the overriding condition.
You're not married yet, don't worry too much about future sins! :D
ReplyDeleteSorry ;)
I'm not religious but I'm married and I use common sense. I guess some couples are more free than others... everybody has a different view on that. What goes for some people won't go for others... "chacun voit midi à sa porte" ;)
Not hurting each other, being happy and comfortable with feelings... that's what matters to me. Being married is making compromised. It's okay... doesn't mean cheating is!
Hello Alexys,
ReplyDelete"ROFL (Rolling On FLoor Laughing) How did you know? Nails are so important. I used to do them all day with elaborate colors, now I cut them off because it took too long to do every week and it makes typing difficult." - LOL as you said I am a little detective LOL :). Oh my, you were so patient "do them all day with elaborate colors"..wow. I don't have the patience for it, I just put a nail-hardner and I am good to go; plus I don't have them long because it makes typing hard. But you are right: nails are important; they say so much about the person, don't they :)?
"The romanticism in me says how sad that couples marry who don't love each other, but the realism in me knows it happens quite often. We make emotional contracts with people all the time, marriage is just one of many." - it is sad indeed :(. I don't think I could ever marry someone I didn't love...*nodding*.
"And yes, compromise is the key to staying afloat. Just look at the last 7 letters of "com(promise);" it is a promise, a mutual concession, quid pro quo." - this is beautiful, Alexys..."com(promise)" gorgeous! And I agree with you.
"Even in compromising, they are still proving that they can be committed to keeping afloat for their agreement." - oh yeah, cause even though a couple agrees on something as difficult as this, it is yet to be proven the maturity to handle (and cope with) it when words turn into acts...can't be an easy thing to do.
"So true. So very true. Love is worth waiting for, but so often we change horses in the middle of the stream." - indeed. But the worse is when people change horses, mules, camels, and then end up by trying to ride dogs...*nodding*
"I can say a hearty, "No!," as someone who lives in the 21st century, they weren't wrong in doing so, but back then, those princesses were taking their lives in their own hands by being so bold. (to acknowledge their feelings with another one other than their husbands." - they were brave indeed *nodding*. In the 18th century everybody was doing it; but the trick was not to get caught in the act. However that was a good lesson for old men who liked to marry youngsters just to flaunt them as trophies *nodding*.
"Henry VIII had Anne Boleyn beheaded. (I must say Anne was ahead of the crowd. ;D)" - LOL indeed she was ;D.
"Thanks for keeping my brain stimulated. :D" - Don't mention it! Plus I thank you for having this most interesting and entertaining conversation, dear :D!
Cheers
Dear Mel,
ReplyDeleteI'd like to thank for having come back :D!
"I understand the restriction of religion. My answer to that is that one must either live in a sexless marriage or change religions. I feel quite absolute about this." - change religion...that is quite complex, isn't it? But I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate your view on this :).
"This may be because that I am Jewish and we have a lot more freedoms in regards to divorce." - Yes, I am quite aware of the freedoms and restrictions of Judaism :). And divorce is one of the things that I find extremely interesting (in Judaism) cause at least people know that if they haven't found the right person they have the freedom to seek for love without having the weight of religion on their shoulders. After all people must find their Bashert (in a sense of soul mates), right?
"To me, trust is absolute in a marriage or else you don't have a marriage." - I agree with you. I even told Anna (one of my guests) that I agreed with you: trust is an extremely important ingredient to marriage.
"To answer your comment in regards to once versus twice......once is a single act. However, an affair, even though it is multiple acts, can be viewed as a single occurence if both spouses can agree that there is a problem and work towards resolution and the rebuilding of trust." - I hear you, and I am taking notes :).
"Again, "trust" being the overriding condition." - trust it is, then :D!
Mel, thank you so much! Your input was extremely important, my friend :)!
Cheers
Zhu,
ReplyDeleteMa chérie, you have brought light with you :D!
"You're not married yet, don't worry too much about future sins! :D" - LOL LOL you know?
"Sorry ;)" - LOL pas de soucis ;)
"I'm not religious but I'm married and I use common sense. I guess some couples are more free than others... everybody has a different view on that. What goes for some people won't go for others... "chacun voit midi à sa porte" ;) " - ouais, je te comprends parfaitement ;). I think that couples have their own codes, and it is not our place to judge nor "se mêler de ses affaires"...if you were religious, I would tell you that it is between the couple and the Creator.
"Not hurting each other, being happy and comfortable with feelings... that's what matters to me. Being married is making compromised. It's okay... doesn't mean cheating is!" - I know what you are trying to say :).
Thank you so much for your input, Zhu :D!
Cheers
Hi Max, back to answer your questions, - "hey no need to apologise and you are welcome, I though you may want to know, many few years ago I did not know these facts either, lol." - You didn't? When did you learn them?
ReplyDeleteIn Europe (I was born in Poland), everyone was Ukr catholic, so the orthodox never came up, but then when they started to call us orthodox here in Canada - someone in the church (probably nun) explained that difference. I guess it takes to be in different environment, to actually trigger some of the answers.
"I know...my fiancé is also more romantic than I am :D! It is pure love :D! We are blessed!" - yes we are.
Max, thanks for commenting back and visiting my blog, now I am off to my blog to follow up the comments - and they cycle continues, lol. Thanks again, Anna :)
Hi Max! I totally agree with alexys, there's no excuse for adultery. Even if you have a weak marriage, to us catholics, just thinking about it makes you a sinner.
ReplyDeleteOff topic, I have a tag for you and it's up at http://mlizcochico.blogspot.com.
Take care and see yah.
Hello Anna,
ReplyDelete"In Europe (I was born in Poland), everyone was Ukr catholic, so the orthodox never came up, but then when they started to call us orthodox here in Canada - someone in the church (probably nun) explained that difference. I guess it takes to be in different environment, to actually trigger some of the answers." - so you are Polish by birth; how wonderful :)! Do you dance Polka? True, cause when you are in your birth country nobody questions anything since there may not be that many different Christian churches, but then you move into a country that has so many different Christian groups (Catholic, Orthodox, Greek, Evangelicals, Protestants, Jehovah Witnesses etc)...you eventually learn about the difference lol.
You are welcome, Anna. In fact, thanks for returning my comment :)! Me too, I have to go and do my blogging round lol :D.
I see you!
Cheers
Hello Liza!
ReplyDelete"Even if you have a weak marriage, to us catholics, just thinking about it makes you a sinner." - yes, I am quite aware of the Catholic view on this issues :D.
Oh my...a tag...what is it? Now I am curious ;)! I'll be on my way to your place in a few minutes :)
Thanks for your contribution, Liza! I appreciated it :D!
Cheers
Yes I was born in Poland. No, I don't know any Polka's, but then all folk dances look like polkas, lol. We actually had really strong cultural ukr community, anything to do with dances or performances we did in Ukr community (I didn't to much), the rest was in Polish school. I think recently we have discovered, that I may have 12% of Polish blood in me. Hey I would love to see your baby photos, please give me the link. Thanks, Anna :)
ReplyDeleteI'm scare to death whenever someone talks about marriage!
ReplyDeleteHi Max,
ReplyDeleteI agree with Mel that marriage is a sacred trust. My ex committed adultery, the first time we talked through it and seemed to survive and rebuild the trust, but it was short lived...she continued this with three other persons which ended up destroying any form of trust and hence the marriage was over.
I will apologise, I got tagged so I have tagged you too, but it's up to you whether you participate.
Details here: http://grottynosh.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/love-and-hate-meme/
Have a great day,
Colin
Anna,
ReplyDelete"No, I don't know any Polka's, but then all folk dances look like polkas, lol." - LOL LOL I hear you...
Ah ok, I got it now :)! Only 12% of Polish blood? I see...I am not even going to mention the percentage of x or y blood I have cause I am the result of many many mixtures!
Here's the link:
http://maxcouti.blogspot.com/2007/11/proudest-moment-in-my-lifea-tag.html
It is only one photo, I was one month old.
You are most welcome, girl :D!
Cheers
Hello Cidão!!
ReplyDeleteLOL don't be; as you can see I have several married guests here and they all speak wonders of marriage :). I am not saying it is easy and dreamy all the time, but neither is life :)!
I think that one day you will change your mind...I have!
Cheers
Hello Colin!
ReplyDelete"I agree with Mel that marriage is a sacred trust. My ex committed adultery, the first time we talked through it and seemed to survive and rebuild the trust, but it was short lived...she continued this with three other persons which ended up destroying any form of trust and hence the marriage was over." - I am so sorry to hear that, Colin :(. By principle I don't make judgements, so I will refrain from making further comments; however I would like to thank you for sharing this with us :)!
No need to apologise, Colin; thanks for tagging me, and it will be my pleasure to participate :)! I have been at your place and that tag is rather interesting :D!
Thank you for your contribution *bowing*!
Have a great day yourself :D!
Hi Max…
ReplyDeleteI will just put on my seatbelt and crash helmet…
….I see everybody else has been keeping you busy and I don’t want to get hit by any traffic…LOL (why create something new? LOL)
You said:
"Ah the joy of Tuesday’s, when the new MAXims are delivered… :)" - LOL LOL LOL ok, isn't Maxim a trashy guys magazine *puzzled face* LOL? Knowing you, I better put on some music so that I can cope with your kind comment lol :)....some Kizomba is in order...
I respond:
LOL
Actually you are correct but it was not in my mind while writing to you, I don’t read it (but I do read your blog), it is trashy from seeing the covers while picking up my copy of Biblical Archeology (and you definitely are not trashy), besides I said MAXims…LOL
Kizomba, hang on a second…walks away…I put on some Dreamlab - Club Revival (Christian techno dance music, very cool)
You said:
"Max my friend would you please enlighten us as to the art you have chosen for this article?" - certainly, my friend: this is Caravaggio's "Sleeping Cupid". I used it as to say that the way things are going between people and their relationships, cupid must be sleeping (of course, others would say that he is dead) *nodding*.
I respond:
LOL LOL
Caravaggio..I think I’ve hear of him…LOL
A suitable element for the theme, although cupid seemed to find himself in enough trouble…
You said:
"I note this definition would include a person that is raped as an adulterer since it says nothing of voluntary intercourse…I believe this would agree with Islamic Sharia law….Personally I think this is a poor definition of adultery…And since you like a hearty conversation this may be why you chose it LOL LOL" - LOL LOL my dear LS, are you trying to do linguistic gymnastics here LOL? :) I have another definition of adultery "extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations", of course this definition could bring other questions "what if the extramarital sex does not maliciosuly interfere with marriage relations? Is it ok to commit adultery?" LOL..sooo, I guess I do like a hearty conversation lol. The most proper definition would've been "voluntary sexual between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse" but then it wouldn't have been so interesting, would've :)?
I respond:
Max I am curious if you are aware that many Christian and Jewish commentators on “thou shalt not commit adultery” infer from the original Hebrew that adultery includes any sexual contact with a person you are not married to, which then would include pre-marital sex…
…Hang on I have to go and turn this song up…there…
I am shocked that you would be so intentionally provocative…LOL LOL
You said:
Ok, we know that your CV is impregnated by the word "sex" in every of its section (Education, Professional experience, Language proficiency and Hobbies) but please, there was no need to be that descriptive (I think we all had understood from your words "I have had multiple partners and sometimes simultaneously" that it meant engaging in threesomes or foursomes lol)...As I have told you before: I am glad you saw the light! One should be generous and share stuff with others, but sex and altruism do not go well together LOL *nodding*. I leave the judging part to you; it is not my place to judge you nor your ex-wife.
I respond:
I thought it would help your ratings….LOL LOL
I just like to point out I am a sinner saved by God’s grace, since often Jesus followers come across as “holy than thou”. Having sex with anybody but your spouse is sin…and there are sinful ways people have sex with their spouse…When I first became a Jesus follower I looked for loopholes out of this, there are none, unless a person distorts Scripture, then the same distortion can be applied across the board…Judging is fine as long as it is not self righteous, or hypocritical. We all judge or use discernment every day…
You said:
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.- - Matthew 5:27-30 (TNIV)" - of course Jesus is saying that the step between thinking of committing adultery and actually doing it is extremely short. This is what one would call yielding to desires, lust, temptations. Now, Jesus said it is best to cut the right hand and throw it away if one thinks of sinning: did you cut yours? Do people cut theirs? Or is this valid only for those who sin after becoming Followers of Jesus?
I respond:
I purposely didn’t mention that Jesus is clearly using a rhetorical devise…hyperbole to make His point at how horrid a sin these kinds of actions and thoughts are. By the way since those kinds of actions are also sins this magnifies how much worse adultery is…
By the way it is also interesting that when you look at the Greek Hell is used in a literal manner, not as hyperbole or as metaphor, an interestingly packed passage as is all of the Sermon on the Mount
In this sermon Jesus points out that we must be perfect, but we cannot be perfect….He uses the law as a tutor to send us to Himself through grace….He makes the point that it is impossible to keep the law to get salvation, we need to be perfect, we can’t stumble at even one part of the law…and we all stumble and sin.
The freedom and liberty of grace….this is another time that makes the point from a Christina perspective that grace slays karma….
You said:
"Clearly adultery is very serious, a sin…" - one has to go deeper than that; one cannot just look at what the word and the act itself. We need to read into the depths of adultery... we need to go beyond the physical part. If a couple does not fulfill the marital right with each other (for years) they are now like sexless friends, and engage in extra-marital relationships...is this considered adultery? If a couple is legally married, have sex only once and realise that they are more friends than a couple (but remain married), if they see other people...is this still adultery? If a man marries a woman, and one of them is gay but they remain married...do you think that the heterosexual spouse should remain sexless? Adultery raises a lot of questions; it is not enough to say "It is a sin"; because even divorce is not seen with good eyes (in Christianity)...what should a Christian do in this cases?
I respond:
This is what I did with the verse I gifted you with; it is clear that adultery is much more than a physical act.
1 Corinthians 7:5 speaks to this issue:
Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
So sex should not be used as a “weapon” this is a sin. All of chapter addresses these kinds of issues…
These are very clear issues, there is no reason we need to live over the line…Sex is very personal so people often want to bend Scripture to their own will, I tried that but then I admitted that I was sinning. Adultery, and other sex sin are clear but people are proud and want what they want….
By the way divorce is just as strongly condemned in the Old Testament as in the New Testament:
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate it when people clothe themselves with injustice," says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful.
- - Malachi 2:16 makes the point abundantly clear….
You said:
"The terms adultery and lust are also often used in Scripture in reference to Israel turning from their relationship with God to false gods and idols…" - Yes, true. And why? Because God knows humans will commit adultery (it is the same as "you shall not kill": He was not expecting humans not to do it, but yes present a deterrent for it; it is the same with adultery...God doesn't want people to do it just like that, yet He knows they will do it), and since He is Merciful He might forgive them. However He will not forgive humans for not following Him, for worshipping false gods...this latter is the biggest sin of them all.
I respond:
LOL Max if people are planning on adultery being ok within their marriage they are better off to not get married. God is about healthy relationship He is not about adultery, do you really think adultery is acceptable to Him, He is against spiritual and marital adultery, neither are acceptable, both are sins. Just think God says human marital adultery is similar to spiritual adultery…What a crazy path to walk down!!! What horrid sin…
You said:
"I am curious as to why you said “since I would have to address the issue someday”. As you are getting married (congratulations *BIG happy smile*) it seems by the wording you see adultery as inevitable (I sure hope not). But you do not say “may have to address”, now of course you could simply mean address as in write an article about it (smile) or you may mean that since lust is inevitable then this is an appropriate topic…. I am guessing you mean write an article…" - LOL LOL *nodding*...thank you, LS *bowing while smirking*! No, I don't see adultery as inevitable (since we are more than just animals, we have the power to resist to whatever when we're strong enough); but I don't live my life looking at my own navel...I always look around, I observe people (that's what I do) and I see that adultery is always hovering over couples (for many reasons).
This article is not about me, nor about my personal beliefs nor thoughts about it; this article is about life, people.
I respond:
LOL…The key part of this is your last line… LOL
Adultery doesn’t lurk about every marriage…
If you seriously believed this stuff one would suspect brain washing…by men….LOL Have you been reading that magazine we spoke of earlier? LOL
You said:
"Max I am quite surprised you didn’t say anything about “one flesh”, Scripture repeatedly tells us that marriage is the two (one male and one female) becoming “one flesh” to the exclusion of all others. You sort of seem to skirt around it….on purpose to make conversation?" - I didn't speak of "one flesh" because I am not trying to romanticise marriage. Not everybody gets married to become one with their spouse (becoming one with one's spouse is not literally physical, as you know; it is a soul connection that goes beyond physical death, and this doesn't occur to everyone); not everybody marries for love...as I told Amelia, there are several reasons as to why people get married.
But let's look at this from another angle: "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh" (Genesis 2:24), yes; I am quite aware of the Scriptures. However, we all know that women (and rarely men) are often forced to get married to men (or women, in the case of men) they don't love...do they consider themselves one flesh with their spouses? I doubt it...
I respond:
What we consider is not the point, God says we are “one flesh” when we a married. From His viewpoint (the only one that really matters) when we marry we are “one flesh”. What we think or how we feel about it is inconsequential to this particular point, it is outside of ourselves and held to His standard…
You said:
"Are you inferring to the one flesh by “the flesh is being swapped”? This kind of betrayal, attack on trust, and horrid sin is very ugly indeed…." - I am talking about both: one flesh and flesh. It is the highest form of betrayal; for one heartfully makes the vows, one promises before God and Men that he/she will honour that person; the other strongly believes in these vows, promises, words and then when the betrayal occurs they feel their heart being stabbed over and over again *nodding*. Of course this only applies to those marriages where the couple loves each other (cause as I said there are several reasons why people get married).
I respond:
Here is the best example I can currently think of from my view point (I have kept the quote to the minimal so as to limit the torture LOL LOL, I think this addresses the struggle (but it is only one part of the story):
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature [d] a slave to the law of sin.
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful humanity to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in human flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind controlled by the sinful nature is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The sinful mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
- - Romans 7:21-8:8 This is just a tease and no the whole story all of chapter 8 clarifies all I have quoted…
You said:
"Delicately handled….Is this how you are trying to express “one flesh”? It is a pretty difficult term to beat…." - yes, in this section I am talking about the one flesh (which doesn't happen to everybody).
I respond:
As I said above “one flesh” is not dependent upon us, it is how God views our union in marriage.
You said:
"I am curious as to how you would regard the Scripture I provided in light of your above words…Interesting tie in…Along with your dreaded St. Paul…LOL" - LOL LOL you must be thinking "Max has gone mad! She believes in God and in the OT; but this is so anti-Scripture!", but Max replies "The world is full of people who have never read the Scripture, and this is MAX not Life On The Blade!" LOL :).
I am aware of what the Scriptures say about adultery, and what God commanded us to do; however the Scriptures are too linear and superficial about the theme. I want to know what God meant exactly by adultery (God is very complex, and I am sure He meant more than what it is written). He said that couples must not sleep with other people, which is a commandment; but was it because it is dangerous for our energetic field? Was it because it brings diseases? Was it because feelings are a very dangerous thing to play with (jealousy,for example, can lead to terrible disruptions or even crimes)? Was God trying to warn us about the consequences of committing adultery more than the act itself? This is what I am expecting to learn from all your comments... :)
(note how I ignore the provocatory mentioning of the Inflamatory P lol, although I have some good notes already to use on your future article on him)
I respond:
LOL It seems you are intentionally dropping your “cloaking device”. You know most people don’t promote things they disagree with on their blogs? LOL LOL
Max I place EVERYTHING on the Blade! LOL LOL that is how God works spiritual surgery in my life…
I would hardly say Scripture is superficial on this issue. In fact it is so surgical so exacting that people struggle vehemently against it they search for loop holes, but there are none…
When you say God is “very complex” do you think you were downplaying His Absolutes? Just teasing I know what you meant…LOL
There are several parts I will address in a short format since they are longer than article length to really handle properly…
God is about relationship, the entirety of Scripture is about this. He is a relational Being (Christians would say this is gloriously perfectly exemplified within His Triunity). Scripture seen through relationship can for our needs in this conversation be spoken of as vertical - God and humans, and horizontal - human to human. God wants us to follow His perfection relationship which is part of why we were created as free agents.
To practice this kind of relationship when persons get married they become as “one” this is within the threshold of the kind of relationship we are designed for….everything else is putting the “wrong fuel in the tank”….
All of the other “rules” etc; are simply a stick used by the Good Shepherd to get us to trust Him in relationship, the rules themselves cannot make us perfect, they actually show our imperfections…our need for Him in relationship…we need grace the law points out we are guilty…
You said:
"This comes back to what I brought up earlier about my personal history…We did what we did voluntarily, whole heartedly, we actually thought our marriage was healthy since we thought we were happy…. and it was adultery, sin." - well, as I said I leave the judgement to you; it is not my place to discuss your personal life, nor judge you and your ex-wife. But my article did not mention threesomes; it was referring to a couple who got married (for a particular reason: either love or business...who knows) and suddenly realise that they have become friends but won't divorce (again for their own reasons); they agree that they'll discreetly see other people (outside their home, to preserve the concept of family)...in this case there is no betrayal of sentiments nor of any other element of the marital agreement. If a couple doesn't fulfill their marital rights with each other, is it still adultery to see other people?
I respond:
Max my friend you miss the point….adultery is the same as having a threesome…war with God…sin…
You said:
"The thing is marriage makes us “one flesh” we are not meant to be shared, not even before marriage…those kinds of things militate against God…." - I agree that when people become one, that unity is not meant to be shared.
Well, being virgin before marriage is very good if one gets married at the age of 16-19 (which is mad: children are to study first); but after that it is a crime to remain a virgin if a person doesn't find the right man to marry with. And I am saying man, because we all know that virginity is imposed on women (in most cultures; cause for example, I know that the Jewish Orthodox get married as virgins, both men and women). Everybody knows that women who stay virgin after 25 years old become crazy. What militates against God is being evil at heart, jealous, murderers, gossipers, foul-mouthed, abusive, obscene, petty, self-centred, low-life SOD...
I respond:
Fornication, sex with a person you are not married to, is a sin. If a person burns with desire they should get married. There are MANY people that remain virgins for many years. I see no differences in the percentage of strangeness within them than in non-virgins.
Sin is sin is sin….
You said:
"There is another aspect that I think you should consider; the fact that since God is part of every marriage as He is the institutor of marriage (yes no matter the belief system), when you commit adultery you are also sinning against God and He is not “ok” with these kinds of “arrangements”, these kinds of plans are war plans against Him….they are sin." - God is part of marriages He has personally planned. Nowadays people are in such a hurry to get married that they end up with the wrong person...what if God makes arrangements for the right couple to meet (while still married)? This is not impossible...and if there are children involved, God knows the effect that it will have on them, and decides to spare them by maintaining their parents marriage but only joining the couple He had planned in the first place.
I respond:
LOL Max before you were telling me we are just like puppets and now you are sating we can thwart God’s plans…
We are free agents; God does not force every one of us to marry who we do. God is the Sovereign “government” all marriages are inevitably accountable to Him, as are all people….
Most people are not in a hurry to get married, a large amount of people no longer get married…Yet it is interesting how governments have now placed time lines that call people officially married for a set amount of time living together, 6 months here…
You said:
"A married couple that tells each other it is ok to sin does not change it from being a sin, they cannot make that delineation, it is God’s prerogative that overrules all…Just because my first wife and I agreed with no coercion to bring other women into our bed does not make it any less of a sin." - But God also said that marital rights should be met, didn't He? What if marital rights are not met? You didn't answer my question...
I respond:
I thought I did answer that one but never the less I have done so earlier in the comment… There is no provision for adultery in God’s government…
You said:
"The reason we are told this by God is He designed us and loves us, He understands relationships perfectly, and adultery even by mutual agreement goes against God’s plan, it is an act of war against Him…." - then if we follow your line of thought people who marry the wrong person are going against God's plan as well. What if God decides to make things right?
I respond:
Where is this right and wrong person thing coming from? LOL
God does not say “Do not commit adultery unless you married the wrong person”!!!!
“Wrong person” LOL LOL You have to be “bluffing” on this one!!! LOL
You said:
"Marriage is extremely serious and not to be entered lightly…" - I utterly agree with you, and that is why I think that people shouldn't rush off into marriage before thinking if that person is really the one, if he/she is IT or not. But unfortunately people choose illy whom they get married to. If people choose right, they won't have to commit adultery: as you said it is about following God's plan (when He makes a match people must be patient enough to follow)!
I respond:
“Have to commit adultery”? LOL LOL Nobody has to commit adultery. LOL LOL LOL
“Have to” LOL LOL Have you been the victim of some men’s magazines propaganda or brainwashing? LOL LOL
LOL Come on Max…LOL LOL
You know there are people out there that will think you actually believe this!!! LOL LOL
Hello LS!
ReplyDelete"I will just put on my seatbelt and crash helmet…" - now I am wondering if whether I should put on one myself LOL LOL...
"….I see everybody else has been keeping you busy and I don’t want to get hit by any traffic…LOL (why create something new? LOL)" - LOL LOL *nodding*...
"LOL Actually you are correct but it was not in my mind while writing to you, I don’t read it (but I do read your blog), it is trashy from seeing the covers while picking up my copy of Biblical Archeology (and you definitely are not trashy), besides I said MAXims…LOL" - I am glad you don't read it (it is a nasty trash) :D! I agree with you: I am not trashy; and I detest common vulgarity (it gets on my nerves)! LOL I was just messing with you, LS...:).
"Kizomba, hang on a second…walks away…I put on some Dreamlab - Club Revival (Christian techno dance music, very cool)" - say what?! Are you for real? LOL LOL *nodding*...and I thought I had heard of everything...
"LOL LOL Caravaggio..I think I’ve hear of him…LOL A suitable element for the theme, although cupid seemed to find himself in enough trouble…" - have you? He is a very gifted artist :). LOL LOL indeed, poor cupid LOL...
"Max I am curious if you are aware that many Christian and Jewish commentators on “thou shalt not commit adultery” infer from the original Hebrew that adultery includes any sexual contact with a person you are not married to, which then would include pre-marital sex…" - LOL LOL yes, I am quite aware. Well, I disagree from their views on pre-marital sex. You don't buy a car without test-driving it...
"…Hang on I have to go and turn this song up…there…" - yes, go; I want to listen to it as well lol...
"I am shocked that you would be so intentionally provocative…LOL LOL" - LOL don't be...it is only another facette of mine...
"I thought it would help your ratings….LOL LOL" - LOL Aaah, so I guess they were coming for your comment...silly me *poking my head* lol...
"Having sex with anybody but your spouse is sin…and there are sinful ways people have sex with their spouse…" - I hear you....
"When I first became a Jesus follower I looked for loopholes out of this, there are none, unless a person distorts Scripture, then the same distortion can be applied across the board…" - you were trying to rationalise your actions...how interesting. It is quite common amongst humans.
"Judging is fine as long as it is not self righteous, or hypocritical. We all judge or use discernment every day…" - you are right but still: I refrain myself from making comments on other's personal life.
"I purposely didn’t mention that Jesus is clearly using a rhetorical devise…hyperbole to make His point at how horrid a sin these kinds of actions and thoughts are. By the way since those kinds of actions are also sins this magnifies how much worse adultery is…" - hyperbole that could be interpreted by severe self-punishment. Did you submit yourself to severe self-punishment?
"By the way it is also interesting that when you look at the Greek Hell is used in a literal manner, not as hyperbole or as metaphor, an interestingly packed passage as is all of the Sermon on the Mount" - I know enough to say that nothing in life is literal; let alone written texts.
"In this sermon Jesus points out that we must be perfect, but we cannot be perfect….He uses the law as a tutor to send us to Himself through grace….He makes the point that it is impossible to keep the law to get salvation, we need to be perfect, we can’t stumble at even one part of the law…and we all stumble and sin." - yes, I read that passage. Perhaps he knew that his followers would find it hard to follow the law (cause it isn't impossible to follow it; the Jewish people are the example of it...although there are exceptions, as in every religion), and he was advising them that maybe they should lean on grace. No one is perfect, only God is. We can follow the Law all we want but we will never be perfect.
"The freedom and liberty of grace….this is another time that makes the point from a Christina perspective that grace slays karma…." - Christina? You mean Christian. Ah, yes, I still remember that article of yours (very interesting).
"This is what I did with the verse I gifted you with; it is clear that adultery is much more than a physical act." - yes, you said that it was even in thoughts, and that those thoughts were a sin. But that is not what I am talking about.
"Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." - Inflamatory P speaks of ceasing sex to pray; it's not the same thing, is it?
"So sex should not be used as a “weapon” this is a sin." - it is classless to use sex as a weapon. But my examples didn't describe using sex as a weapon, LS.
""I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate it when people clothe themselves with injustice," says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful.- - Malachi 2:16 makes the point abundantly clear…." - for sure you know, my dear friend, that Malachi 2:10 onwards is about the marriages between Israelis and the daughters of a foreign god; and divorce is referring to the fact that the Israelis divorce their first God fearing wives to marry women who worship false gods (it is not that God hates divorce, He hates that the Jewish wives are being swapped by pagans; who will deviate the Jewish men). We need to see things within context.
God said "If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house." (Deuteronomy 24:1); this is the Law. So divorce is not condemned in the OT. Besides if it were the Jewish people wouldn't have the Get; and they are the followers of the Law.
"LOL Max if people are planning on adultery being ok within their marriage they are better off to not get married." - I don't think that people plan to find adultery ok before getting married, many don't even think about it. However things happen along the way....
"God is about healthy relationship He is not about adultery, do you really think adultery is acceptable to Him, He is against spiritual and marital adultery, neither are acceptable, both are sins." - I don't know what God thinks, I know that He commanded us not to commit adultery; However I would like to know what He meant exactly when He said "You shall not commit adultery"; because He also said "You shall not kill" and yet we seem to easily find several loopholes for this commandmed (plus God at times told sent us to war and kill children and women "They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. [Joshua 6:21]); so why is it so hard to try to understand what God really meant by "You shall not commint adultery", would He blame (even though it is adultery) people in the following situations: a couple that does not fulfill the marital right with each other (for years) they are now like sexless friends, and engage in extra-marital relationships; a couple legally married, has sex only once and realise that they are more friends than a couple (but remain married); a man that marries a woman, and one of them is gay yet they remain married...they do not fulfill the marital rights with each other?
"Adultery doesn’t lurk about every marriage…If you seriously believed this stuff one would suspect brain washing…by men….LOL Have you been reading that magazine we spoke of earlier? LOL" - LOL LOL no, I don't read trash, I'm afraid. Adultery lurks about every marriage, LS...there is always some bad-intended woman trying to seduce somebody's husband (if he for a second thinks about it, yet doesn't yield to her enchantments - according to Jesus - he is still committing adultery. If he doesn't think about it nor succumbs to her then he sins not) or a man trying to seduce somebody's wife (and what I described for the man can easily be applied to women). Just look around society, this is happening everyday....
"What we consider is not the point, God says we are “one flesh” when we a married. From His viewpoint (the only one that really matters) when we marry we are “one flesh”. What we think or how we feel about it is inconsequential to this particular point, it is outside of ourselves and held to His standard…" - you are stating that God is silly; cause He knows better than anyone that when we marry someone we do not actually become one flesh (we don't melt together) - it is figurative. As such, "one flesh" means two souls become one, and this is only possible when deep love is involved, and there is a connection so deep that nobody, nothing, can tear it apart - this is what God meant. Let's not forget that He is Spirit, He doesn't think in terms of flesh "«For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways» declares the Lord" (Isaiah 55:8).
"Here is the best example I can currently think of from my view point (I have kept the quote to the minimal so as to limit the torture LOL LOL, I think this addresses the struggle (but it is only one part of the story):" - LOL torture?! LOL LOL this was a very good one *nodding*. My friend, inflamatory P defends that the law is a prison (which is not), but at the same time finds inspiration in the law to write his philosophical texts. Once again, these are his words, not God's.
"This is just a tease and no the whole story all of chapter 8 clarifies all I have quoted…" - I like it when you tease me with Inflamatory P, the philosopher.
"LOL It seems you are intentionally dropping your “cloaking device”. You know most people don’t promote things they disagree with on their blogs? LOL LOL" - there is no promotion of adultery here, there is promotion of Thought.
"Max I place EVERYTHING on the Blade! LOL LOL that is how God works spiritual surgery in my life…" - :)
"I would hardly say Scripture is superficial on this issue. In fact it is so surgical so exacting that people struggle vehemently against it they search for loop holes, but there are none…" - no, it isn't that surgical; and the proof of that is that each Christian group makes its own interpretation of the Blade. Christians make their own interpretation of the OT...do Jewish Scholars agree with them? The Bible is full of signs that need to be closely interpreted, and not taken so literally.
"God is about relationship, the entirety of Scripture is about this. He is a relational Being (Christians would say this is gloriously perfectly exemplified within His Triunity). Scripture seen through relationship can for our needs in this conversation be spoken of as vertical - God and humans, and horizontal - human to human. God wants us to follow His perfection relationship which is part of why we were created as free agents." - I agree with this.
"To practice this kind of relationship when persons get married they become as “one” this is within the threshold of the kind of relationship we are designed for….everything else is putting the “wrong fuel in the tank”…." - However, when humans force others to marry people they don't love, people who will (many times) rape their spouses: is this a "perfection relationship"? Is this one flesh?
"Max my friend you miss the point….adultery is the same as having a threesome…war with God…sin…" - you are right, it is a sin. But in the examples I gave: If a couple does not fulfill the marital right with each other (for years) they are now like sexless friends, and engage in extra-marital relationships...is it wrong? If a couple is legally married, have sex only once and realise that they are more friends than a couple (but remain married), if they see other people...is this wrong? If a man marries a woman, and one of them is gay but they remain married...do you think that the heterosexual spouse should remain sexless?
"Fornication, sex with a person you are not married to, is a sin. If a person burns with desire they should get married. There are MANY people that remain virgins for many years. I see no differences in the percentage of strangeness within them than in non-virgins." - LOL I disagree.
"Sin is sin is sin…." - are you all right, my friend? [somebody, please, fetch LS a glass of water...he is having a stroke of shock] lol...
"LOL Max before you were telling me we are just like puppets and now you are sating we can thwart God’s plans…" - I never told you that I believed that we were puppets. I said that some defend that theory.
"We are free agents; God does not force every one of us to marry who we do. God is the Sovereign “government” all marriages are inevitably accountable to Him, as are all people…." - exactly, He doesn't force us to marry who we do. Through free-will people marry illy; and then when God tries to makes things right...this is possible; but I don't expect you to understand (you don't believe in so many things...).
"Most people are not in a hurry to get married, a large amount of people no longer get married…Yet it is interesting how governments have now placed time lines that call people officially married for a set amount of time living together, 6 months here…" - no, they don't rush into legally marrying; however most people rush in a hurry to live in together, is that not some sort of marriage? Or are you saying that in this case adultery doesn't apply (Sentiments are still betrayed)? Here at the end of 5 years living together a couple is considered to be married.
"I thought I did answer that one but never the less I have done so earlier in the comment… There is no provision for adultery in God’s government…" - under no circumstance? Even if the marriage is forced? Even if the wife is 30 and the husband is 85 (and doesn't fulfill his marital duties)? Even if the marital duties are not met? Even in case of homosexuality (and once again the marital duties are not met)? Of course all of this if they, for any reason, don't get a divorce...
"Where is this right and wrong person thing coming from? LOL" - you should know :).
"God does not say “Do not commit adultery unless you married the wrong person”!!!!" - God didn't say "You shall not kill unless in case of war" either.
"“Wrong person” LOL LOL You have to be “bluffing” on this one!!! LOL" - if a husband beats up his wife (he is clearly wrong for her); if a wife sleeps around with other men in her marital bed, humiliating her husband (she is clearly wrong for him)...the examples are endless. Unless you believe in Karma, then things take a whole different shape....but ah, you don't!
"“Have to commit adultery”? LOL LOL Nobody has to commit adultery. LOL LOL LOL" - LOL some people would disagree (unfortunately I know a few).
"“Have to” LOL LOL Have you been the victim of some men’s magazines propaganda or brainwashing? LOL LOL" - LOL LOL LOL I am just asking questions people ask...
"You know there are people out there that will think you actually believe this!!! LOL LOL " - LOL those people don't know me, so I can't blame them. MAX is not about me, it is about life.
LS, this was awesome...thank you :D! I had so much fun...I will sleep as an Angel tonight LOL :)!
Cheers
Some say that intimacy is merely a chemical lie brought on by the release of oxytocin during intercourse. But it's much more than that. It's a social bond, and I'd like to think that the relationships among humans are more than just empty illusions of trust effected by mere hormones. I think we're more than just mindless, raving animals influenced by chemicals. In romantic relationships, there ought to be a shared conception of love as a bond that transcends all material, chemical dimensions. Love is what makes you smile just thinking about another person, what makes children, what gives good people a spirit to live. Cheers Max!
ReplyDeleteHi, gorgeous!!!
ReplyDeleteHope UR weekend was GREAT!!! ;-D
When you have time later, check out my old pics here and try to spot me HI HI HI...
Old Pics of Me
Max, you said: 'Ah 'I am not even going to mention the percentage of x or y blood I have cause I am the result of many many mixtures!' - so you are unique.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your baby photo link, you were cute baby and now I can say unique. Those cute features on your face are just amazing, and I am sure they stayed with you.
Hopefully when you get married, we get to see some wedding photos.
Anna :)
Max, this is a very good description of adultery. I hadn't thought of it quite this way: "couples that inexplicably deactivate their field of intimacy…"
ReplyDeleteYes, certainly adultery breaks the bonds of trust and intimacy and promise. As well as familial "integrity." And you have said it so well! There you go again, bravely exploring ideas!
whoa!! Lotsa long discussion here... hahaha.. I agree with Amel, we have the same concept, as we used to live in the same town, went to the same school... LOL... and I agree with LS as well...that when we are married, we become one flesh with our spouse.. :-)
ReplyDeleteHello Manimala!
ReplyDelete"Some say that intimacy is merely a chemical lie brought on by the release of oxytocin during intercourse. But it's much more than that." - I agree with you; it is so but so much more than that, my friend :).
"It's a social bond, and I'd like to think that the relationships among humans are more than just empty illusions of trust effected by mere hormones." - I also like to think this; however there are some fellow humans who are mistaken to the point of thinking that hormones are in total control, and serve as justification for their wild (and often, brainless) actions *nodding*.
"In romantic relationships, there ought to be a shared conception of love as a bond that transcends all material, chemical dimensions. Love is what makes you smile just thinking about another person, what makes children, what gives good people a spirit to live." - this is so beautiful! I will not add a single word to what has been said so that I won't ruin this :).
Thank you for your delightful input, Manimala! It is always a pleasure to read your comments :)!
Cheers
Hello Anna,
ReplyDeleteI gather you had a peaceful weekend :)!
"so you are unique." - people say that I am exotic; my mom says I am unique...so I guess you may be right :). Thank you *bowing*!
"Thanks for your baby photo link, you were cute baby and now I can say unique. Those cute features on your face are just amazing, and I am sure they stayed with you." - you are most welcome :). Thank you, darling *bowing*! Indeed, I didn't change much....how did you know?
"Hopefully when you get married, we get to see some wedding photos." - lol we'll see :D!
Thank you so much for your kind words, I think I'm blushing a bit lol....
Cheers
Hello Lynda,
ReplyDelete"this is a very good description of adultery. I hadn't thought of it quite this way: "couples that inexplicably deactivate their field of intimacy…"" - thank you, dear *bowing*! I just thought of describing this derailing action as close to reality as possible, without shocking people :).
"Yes, certainly adultery breaks the bonds of trust and intimacy and promise. As well as familial "integrity." And you have said it so well!There you go again, bravely exploring ideas!" - yes, it does, indeed. Thank you, darling; thank you so much for your kind words!
I would also like to thank you for your input :)!
Cheers
Hello Trinity!
ReplyDeleteLOL yes, MAX is the place for self-expression lol :D!
"I agree with Amel, we have the same concept, as we used to live in the same town, went to the same school... LOL... and I agree with LS as well...that when we are married, we become one flesh with our spouse.. :-)" - thank you so much for your contribution, dear :)!
Cheers
Thanks Max, and since blushing is healthy, you can expect more, lol. Thanks for sharing your childhood, and may be one day I get to see your wedding photos - may be I trade you with mine, lol. Anna :)
ReplyDeleteDear Anna,
ReplyDeleteYou are most welcome *bowing*! LOL LOL Oh, you are planning to make me blush even more...not fair LOL :D! It was my pleasure, dear :D!
Cheers
After reading the responses, it seems everyone has gone into alot of depth and research lol...
ReplyDeleteWhat a wide variety of beliefs it's amazing. Indeed, it is only the educated that can have such wide beliefs...
Personally, I feel quite similar to Amel first post. Get married and stay with each other or divorce. Prolonging something that is false will simply hurt each other more.
Getting married I guess symbolise a special connection between two person. So making an agreement to breach that simply will hurt those original feelings despite the fact that they may have dissipated to the extent that such an agreement was made in the first place.
So over time, both will be hurt so why continue? Prevention is better than cure they say... Prevent what you can.
I contribute infidelity to 70% of the mind and 30% to the environment. 70% because we are less experienced to a variety of situations and experiences and 30% because of our upbringing.
Most insightful post Max!
adultery while you´re married is fine in my mind, but one should ask their spouse to see if it is okay with them!
ReplyDeleteHello Shan,
ReplyDeleteWelcome back :D!
"After reading the responses, it seems everyone has gone into alot of depth and research lol..." - LOL indeed, my friend. This is a serious matter and we all wanted to give the attention and respect it deserves :)
"What a wide variety of beliefs it's amazing. Indeed, it is only the educated that can have such wide beliefs..." - thank you, I think lol :). The MAXzone entertains people from various nations and backgrounds so it is only natural that it results in diverse opinions...
"Personally, I feel quite similar to Amel first post. Get married and stay with each other or divorce. Prolonging something that is false will simply hurt each other more." - all right, I can get that. But what if the couple's religious beliefs doesn't allow them to get a divorce? And what if for some reason they don't get a divorce and one of them is gay? What should the couple do in these cases?
"Getting married I guess symbolise a special connection between two person. So making an agreement to breach that simply will hurt those original feelings despite the fact that they may have dissipated to the extent that such an agreement was made in the first place." - I agree with you when you say that marriage is the symbol of a special connection between two people. But people get married for several reasons (not all of them marry for love); so what kind of original feelings would be hurt?
"Prevention is better than cure they say... Prevent what you can." - lol I loved this sentence; it was very good *bowing*!
"I contribute infidelity to 70% of the mind and 30% to the environment. 70% because we are less experienced to a variety of situations and experiences and 30% because of our upbringing." - I see...interesting...but we have reason, shouldn't it control our impulses? And if a certain situation is observed (such as homosexuality in one of the spouses) should the couple resist those impulses? And is it all right to do so, or is it still betrayal?
"Most insightful post Max! " - thank you, my friend :D!
Thank you so much for your contribution, it was much appreciated :D!
Cheers
Hello VT!
ReplyDelete"adultery while you´re married is fine in my mind, but one should ask their spouse to see if it is okay with them!" - LOL LOL so you agree with the second part of the article? Wow...I respect your being so direct about this issue, my friend *bowing*!
Thank you so much for your input; VT. I loved you straight-forwardness :D!
Cheers
Hi Max!
ReplyDeleteI am in a retro state today! LOL
Just making my way thru some older (classic) comments so I thought I would reply to this one….
You said:
"Kizomba, hang on a second…walks away…I put on some Dreamlab - Club Revival (Christian techno dance music, very cool)" - say what?! Are you for real? LOL LOL *nodding*...and I thought I had heard of everything...
I respond:
Have a taste; you can listen to a bit of each song from the disc:
http://www.goglobalentertainment.com/title_view.php?album_ID=71
You said:
"Max I am curious if you are aware that many Christian and Jewish commentators on “thou shalt not commit adultery” infer from the original Hebrew that adultery includes any sexual contact with a person you are not married to, which then would include pre-marital sex…" - LOL LOL yes, I am quite aware. Well, I disagree from their views on pre-marital sex. You don't buy a car without test-driving it...
I respond:
That kind of sex attacks God, the scripture is very clear it is sin. That is enough for me on the topic but I would also add from another point of view that one of the major problems we have with abortion comes form this kind of behavior along with the plethora of diseases, and devastated relationships. To use your car illustration you are never sure what the last test driver put in the fuel tank till it is wrecked.
You said:
"Having sex with anybody but your spouse is sin…and there are sinful ways people have sex with their spouse…" - I hear you....
"When I first became a Jesus follower I looked for loopholes out of this, there are none, unless a person distorts Scripture, then the same distortion can be applied across the board…" - you were trying to rationalise your actions...how interesting. It is quite common amongst humans.
I respond:
Respectfully Max my friend I believe you are “trying to rationalise your actions”. I think this is rather buffet style theology. I understand sex is very intimate and therefore personal but if murder is wrong so is adultery.
You said:
"Judging is fine as long as it is not self righteous, or hypocritical. We all judge or use discernment every day…" - you are right but still: I refrain myself from making comments on other's personal life.
I respond:
Cool! At least we both agree on the concept of judging!
You said:
"I purposely didn’t mention that Jesus is clearly using a rhetorical devise…hyperbole to make His point at how horrid a sin these kinds of actions and thoughts are. By the way since those kinds of actions are also sins this magnifies how much worse adultery is…" - hyperbole that could be interpreted by severe self-punishment. Did you submit yourself to severe self-punishment?
I respond:
Excellent point! My depraved sinful behavior demands justice. I deserve to be found guilty of violating god’s law and to be thrown into the Lake of Fire forever…. Grace slays karma…. As a follower of Jesus I am cloaked in His perfect sinless righteousness. Although practically I am a sinner, positionally before God I am perfect because when He looks upon me He sees the righteousness of Jesus. Once again the law is a tutor, a stick guiding us to Jesus and His grace…The law cannot save, it can only condemn, and enact punishment, Jesus and His grace saves…
You said:
"By the way it is also interesting that when you look at the Greek Hell is used in a literal manner, not as hyperbole or as metaphor, an interestingly packed passage as is all of the Sermon on the Mount" - I know enough to say that nothing in life is literal; let alone written texts.
I respond:
LOL Max are your words a literal statement? LOL
You said:
"In this sermon Jesus points out that we must be perfect, but we cannot be perfect….He uses the law as a tutor to send us to Himself through grace….He makes the point that it is impossible to keep the law to get salvation, we need to be perfect, we can’t stumble at even one part of the law…and we all stumble and sin." - yes, I read that passage. Perhaps he knew that his followers would find it hard to follow the law (cause it isn't impossible to follow it; the Jewish people are the example of it...although there are exceptions, as in every religion), and he was advising them that maybe they should lean on grace. No one is perfect, only God is. We can follow the Law all we want but we will never be perfect.
I respond:
We cannot follow the law perfectly, neither Christians nor Jews or anybody else. We are ALL sinners. We all need grace, none of deserves to enter Heaven by our deeds. You are correct that only God is without sin, perfect.
You said:
""I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate it when people clothe themselves with injustice," says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful.- - Malachi 2:16 makes the point abundantly clear…." - for sure you know, my dear friend, that Malachi 2:10 onwards is about the marriages between Israelis and the daughters of a foreign god; and divorce is referring to the fact that the Israelis divorce their first God fearing wives to marry women who worship false gods (it is not that God hates divorce, He hates that the Jewish wives are being swapped by pagans; who will deviate the Jewish men). We need to see things within context.
God said "If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house." (Deuteronomy 24:1); this is the Law. So divorce is not condemned in the OT. Besides if it were the Jewish people wouldn't have the Get; and they are the followers of the Law.
I respond:
Yes God does condemn following other “gods”. There is only one God and one way to Him. God tells us more than one thing in the passage I quoted. He clearly hates divorce, and He hates the injustice that goes with it. Understand that I am NOT saying that divorce is always forbidden. God does hate divorce but it is allowed under certain circumstances, Jesus and Paul both speak of this and I am aware of the OT statements on the topic. I am simply trying to make the point at how important marriage is to God, and therefore how evil adultery is.
You said:
"God is about healthy relationship He is not about adultery, do you really think adultery is acceptable to Him, He is against spiritual and marital adultery, neither are acceptable, both are sins." - I don't know what God thinks, I know that He commanded us not to commit adultery; However I would like to know what He meant exactly when He said "You shall not commit adultery"; because He also said "You shall not kill" and yet we seem to easily find several loopholes for this commandmed (plus God at times told sent us to war and kill children and women "They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. [Joshua 6:21]); so why is it so hard to try to understand what God really meant by "You shall not commint adultery", would He blame (even though it is adultery) people in the following situations: a couple that does not fulfill the marital right with each other (for years) they are now like sexless friends, and engage in extra-marital relationships; a couple legally married, has sex only once and realise that they are more friends than a couple (but remain married); a man that marries a woman, and one of them is gay yet they remain married...they do not fulfill the marital rights with each other?
I respond:
Very good points, lets explore them….
As I have said at other times in our conversations “kill” is more accurately translated as “murder”. There is a difference. To kill is not an illegal or immoral action, there are legitimate reasons to take human life. It is not something to be done with cavalier abandon but it is permissible for example in self defense. Why is murder wrong? I mean this beyond the simple declaration that it is wrong as God says (which is enough in itself)?
God is life. He is the Living One. Humans are made in His “image”. Murder of another person is an attack against God because He is the One from Whom life comes, and we are created in His “image”. All of the commandments go back to the nature of God and relationship with Him.
God is relationally perfect (as a Christian I would say this is best exemplified in the His Triunity, but it is also evident without that perspective). When we sin in our relationships (adultery is our current example) we are breaking relationship. This also includes the fact that God is Love. Adultery is an adversary of love, and therefore an adversary of God. Adultery like murder is must be seen in the light of God’s character and nature.
There are just wars such as that in Joshua. Interestingly the Jews did not follow God’s instructions and so the war goes on to this day….
There are couples where sex is no big deal. They don’t have much desire for it and can happily live together in a loving marriage. Sex is not everything! LOL If one of the partners of the one flesh still desires sex and the other partner does not want to engage init then the partner neglecting the other is sinning, but if one chooses to commit adultery because of this they are also sinning. Lets be clear we will not be perfectly happy at all times on this planet, either married or unmarried.
Yet God does permit divorce under two circumstances. Jesus makes it clear that divorce is allowable if there is adultery (Matthew 5:31-32) and if you are a Christian and your spouse abandons the marriage over a long term with clear intent to never return, desertion (1 Corinthians 7:10-16). And the persons are free to remarry.
You said:
"Adultery doesn’t lurk about every marriage…If you seriously believed this stuff one would suspect brain washing…by men….LOL Have you been reading that magazine we spoke of earlier? LOL" - LOL LOL no, I don't read trash, I'm afraid. Adultery lurks about every marriage, LS...there is always some bad-intended woman trying to seduce somebody's husband (if he for a second thinks about it, yet doesn't yield to her enchantments - according to Jesus - he is still committing adultery. If he doesn't think about it nor succumbs to her then he sins not) or a man trying to seduce somebody's wife (and what I described for the man can easily be applied to women). Just look around society, this is happening everyday....
I respond:
Actually you are missing Jesus point entirely Max…
In Matthew 5:27-28 Jesus says:
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
The word “looks” enfolds the concept of a lingering look, a considered look, an observing examining look.
The word “lustfully” expresses a desire, longing, lustful covetousness, such as after someone or something forbidden.
These two must come together for this to be this particular sin, they are inextricably intertwined.
Therefore a simple appreciation of the beauty of another person or of creation such as a waterfall is not a sin.
So just because a person may be attempting to tempt a person to sin does not mean the person being tempted is actually sinning.
Example: If a woman is trying to “hit on me” this does not mean I am sinning. If I were to go thru the process I described above (“looks”, “lustfully”) then I would be sinning and adultery would be “lurking in my marriage”.
You said:
"What we consider is not the point, God says we are “one flesh” when we a married. From His viewpoint (the only one that really matters) when we marry we are “one flesh”. What we think or how we feel about it is inconsequential to this particular point, it is outside of ourselves and held to His standard…" - you are stating that God is silly; cause He knows better than anyone that when we marry someone we do not actually become one flesh (we don't melt together) - it is figurative. As such, "one flesh" means two souls become one, and this is only possible when deep love is involved, and there is a connection so deep that nobody, nothing, can tear it apart - this is what God meant. Let's not forget that He is Spirit, He doesn't think in terms of flesh "«For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways» declares the Lord" (Isaiah 55:8).
I respond:
LOL Yes we can agree that God is using a figure of speech but it does nothing to lessen the degree of how He sees the bond of marriage. To often people do not really take in the seriousness of marriage. It is enormously serious; the fact that the language is figurative does not lessen the degree of His meaning. Far too many people think that marriage is about “being happy”. Well it is more than about “being happy”.
I love that passage of Isaiah!!! It is one of the first chapters of Scripture I ever memorized!!! Very cool!!!
I memorized it just after this part of Scripture that goes so well with it:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
- - John 1:1-14 (NIV)
You said:
"Here is the best example I can currently think of from my view point (I have kept the quote to the minimal so as to limit the torture LOL LOL, I think this addresses the struggle (but it is only one part of the story):" - LOL torture?! LOL LOL this was a very good one *nodding*. My friend, inflamatory P defends that the law is a prison (which is not), but at the same time finds inspiration in the law to write his philosophical texts. Once again, these are his words, not God's.
I respond:
LOL
Of course from a Christian point of view Romans is as much God’s Word as Genesis is…
LOL Are you trying to be inflammatory M? LOL Just joking you know I appreciate your forthright language, I am hoping to get even more of it while wheedling down the mystery. LOL
You said:
"I would hardly say Scripture is superficial on this issue. In fact it is so surgical so exacting that people struggle vehemently against it they search for loop holes, but there are none…" - no, it isn't that surgical; and the proof of that is that each Christian group makes its own interpretation of the Blade. Christians make their own interpretation of the OT...do Jewish Scholars agree with them? The Bible is full of signs that need to be closely interpreted, and not taken so literally.
I respond:
There is only one “Christian group”, the Church (of course there are many frauds and charlatans). I was speaking of course in the context of adultery. This is no controversy in the Church, adultery is sin. I have never met a genuine Christian that would say otherwise.
Most of Scripture is literal, discerning this is actually not difficult in the vast portions of Scripture. There are of course poetic parts etc and they are in the vast majority of cases easily discernable as being poetic etc…
There is symbology in Scripture which is in the vast majority of cases discernable.
There are actually vast swaths of Scripture that Jewish and Christians agree upon….
We said:
"God is about relationship, the entirety of Scripture is about this. He is a relational Being (Christians would say this is gloriously perfectly exemplified within His Triunity). Scripture seen through relationship can for our needs in this conversation be spoken of as vertical - God and humans, and horizontal - human to human. God wants us to follow His perfection relationship which is part of why we were created as free agents." - I agree with this.
I respond:
Hey us agreeing is worthy of a comment! I like it!! LOL
You said:
"To practice this kind of relationship when persons get married they become as “one” this is within the threshold of the kind of relationship we are designed for….everything else is putting the “wrong fuel in the tank”…." - However, when humans force others to marry people they don't love, people who will (many times) rape their spouses: is this a "perfection relationship"? Is this one flesh?
I respond:
I believe this was covered earlier. It is sin to force a person to marry another. It is sin to force sex upon another. At a more simple less dramatic level humans are incapable of perfect relationships. Yet we do have the perfect “model” or “standard” in God, He says adultery is sin. Good enough for me. I can tell you personally that if my wife refused to have sex with me for the rest of my life I would not have sex with another person. What if she was ill for the rest of my life and we could not have sex? The importance of sex diminishes under such circumstances if one is correctly applying the will in regards to love. There is more to life than sex, it is simply one component.
Max I will intersperse my replies among your words [within brackets]:
"Max my friend you miss the point….adultery is the same as having a threesome…war with God…sin…" - you are right, it is a sin [excellent we have agreement]. But in the examples I gave: If a couple does not fulfill the marital right with each other (for years) they are now like sexless friends, and engage in extra-marital relationships...is it wrong? [Yes it is sin] If a couple is legally married, have sex only once and realise that they are more friends than a couple (but remain married), if they see other people...is this wrong? [Yes it is sin] If a man marries a woman, and one of them is gay but they remain married...do you think that the heterosexual spouse should remain sexless? [Yes]
Now let me engage this a little more. What if a spouse comes down with a health condition that means they could no longer have sexual relations? This should not change the commitment the healthy partner has to the other in their marriage. Just because the world runs after sex as their god does not mean it is right. Adultery is sin, it is really very simple.
You said:
"We are free agents; God does not force every one of us to marry who we do. God is the Sovereign “government” all marriages are inevitably accountable to Him, as are all people…." - exactly, He doesn't force us to marry who we do. Through free-will people marry illy; and then when God tries to makes things right...this is possible; but I don't expect you to understand (you don't believe in so many things...).
I reply:
LOL So would you like to give me an example of how once a person is married to another person God “tries” to make things right? Do you believe He uses adultery?
You said:
"Most people are not in a hurry to get married, a large amount of people no longer get married…Yet it is interesting how governments have now placed time lines that call people officially married for a set amount of time living together, 6 months here…" - no, they don't rush into legally marrying; however most people rush in a hurry to live in together, is that not some sort of marriage? Or are you saying that in this case adultery doesn't apply (Sentiments are still betrayed)? Here at the end of 5 years living together a couple is considered to be married.
I respond:
That is people living in a life of fornication, sin. You could apply the term adultery as we discussed earlier but a wider audience would call it fornication, I am fine with either or both under the situation you describe. It’s a sin.
For about 15 years we were 1 year but several years ago they set the number at 6 months. The government recognized the havoc the situation was placing upon society and thought it prudent to change the law.
You said:
"I thought I did answer that one but never the less I have done so earlier in the comment… There is no provision for adultery in God’s government…" - under no circumstance? Even if the marriage is forced? Even if the wife is 30 and the husband is 85 (and doesn't fulfill his marital duties)? Even if the marital duties are not met? Even in case of homosexuality (and once again the marital duties are not met)? Of course all of this if they, for any reason, don't get a divorce...
I respond:
The Scripture says: “You shall not commit adultery”, there are no amendments to this text in Scripture.
It no where says ““You shall not commit adultery unless your spouse becomes disabled and can no longer engage in sexual relations then go ahead and have sex with any cute blond over 21 that will help you receive sexual release” or any other kind of thing. Marriage is serious stuff. People don’t like others telling them how to “run their sex life”, they don’t want to hear it even from including God. He is very clear on the matter. His will is more important than our sexual gratification. Trust me I like sex but it is unimportant in the grand plan of God and His will for my life. I also have experienced God’s transforming power in my life in regards to sex and everything else in life so I understand that by His power a life can be changed, upgraded.
You said:
"God does not say “Do not commit adultery unless you married the wrong person”!!!!" - God didn't say "You shall not kill unless in case of war" either.
I respond:
Actually there is quite a difference. As I said just above “there are no amendments” making adultery a “none sin”. There are however substantial portions of Scripture that delineate killing, murder and war, capital punishment etc.
You said:
"“Wrong person” LOL LOL You have to be “bluffing” on this one!!! LOL" - if a husband beats up his wife (he is clearly wrong for her); if a wife sleeps around with other men in her marital bed, humiliating her husband (she is clearly wrong for him)...the examples are endless. Unless you believe in Karma, then things take a whole different shape....but ah, you don't!
I respond:
I took your “wrong person” within the context I thought you were presenting which was in parameters of God having the “right person” for you and you choosing the “wrong person”.
If as man is beating his wife he is sinning and the woman should if at all possible remove herself from living in that situation. An attempt at reconciliation should also be attempted, the man must change. The husband is allowed to divorce his wife if she has behaved in the manner you describe above (she has committed adultery, sin). Yet once again reconciliation is far better.
Karma lacks true justice and is an affront to the holiness of God and also militates against God’s grace. God’s grace is not needed if a person is able to work their way into Heaven, karma is a loser, and grace is the winner.
You said:
"“Have to commit adultery”? LOL LOL Nobody has to commit adultery. LOL LOL LOL" - LOL some people would disagree (unfortunately I know a few).
I respond:
Many people make up excuses so they “can” sin.
You said:
"You know there are people out there that will think you actually believe this!!! LOL LOL " - LOL those people don't know me, so I can't blame them. MAX is not about me, it is about life.
I respond:
LOL Max you must see how this could be seen as you promoting adultery. You should have a disclaimer somewhere on your blog! LOL
I mean it is called MAX so it infers it is your convictions you are speaking of!! LOL
I can see it now “The comments and ideas expressed by Max should in no way be taken as actually representing her views”. LOL I love it! Would you like me to add it to the header? LOL
I love talking with you Max it is an excellent adventure….
L
Hello LS!
ReplyDelete"I am in a retro state today! LOL" - LOL yes, I have noticed it :).
"Have a taste; you can listen to a bit of each song from the disc:" - thank you for sharing this with me, LS...I listened to it (it seems to be an interesting project) but I must say that it is not my cup of tea...
"That kind of sex attacks God, the scripture is very clear it is sin. That is enough for me on the topic but I would also add from another point of view that one of the major problems we have with abortion comes form this kind of behavior along with the plethora of diseases, and devastated relationships. To use your car illustration you are never sure what the last test driver put in the fuel tank till it is wrecked." - LOL I loved the way you used my car illustration lol *nodding*. However I never heard that a test driver could mess with the fuel tank; he/she usually gets in the car and drives the car around. But I know what you mean.
Once again I don't think that pre-marital sex attacks God, He recommended it for organisation sake; since in those times they was not the marriage concept as we know it today, so once you had sex with somebody you were considered his/her wife/husband. But I agree that engaging in innumerous and irresponsible sex can lead to "the plethora of diseases and devastated relationships".
"Respectfully Max my friend I believe you are “trying to rationalise your actions”. I think this is rather buffet style theology. I understand sex is very intimate and therefore personal but if murder is wrong so is adultery." - LOL LOL what actions of mine? I may even agree with you that adultery is wrong (since it represents the betrayal of sentiments, of vows, of deactivation of the intimacy field); but if murder is understandable under certain circumstances why isn't adultery?
"Cool! At least we both agree on the concept of judging!" - lol *nodding*....
"Excellent point! My depraved sinful behavior demands justice. I deserve to be found guilty of violating god’s law and to be thrown into the Lake of Fire forever…. Grace slays karma…. As a follower of Jesus I am cloaked in His perfect sinless righteousness." - Who can demand for such justice? No human has the right to demand for such justice. What you did is between you and God, only He can judge you (if He will at all). Karma...if we speak of Karma, then I would say that you were bound to experience all the things you did, and judgement would no longer take place, since it had been designed for your life.
"Although practically I am a sinner, positionally before God I am perfect because when He looks upon me He sees the righteousness of Jesus. Once again the law is a tutor, a stick guiding us to Jesus and His grace…The law cannot save, it can only condemn, and enact punishment, Jesus and His grace saves…" - interesting...the law is a behavioural guide; and of course it enacts punishment (cause that is what laws do, although civil laws should have clear amendments - Portugal doesn't). I am ever so sorry, but I don't believe that Jesus and his grace save whosoever; since I know an amount of people who say that Jesus has saved them and put them in the right track; yet their souls and their actions do not reflect this said intervention in their lives.
"LOL Max are your words a literal statement? LOL" - LOL remember your article about words? Well, what you and I say is not quite what it is...is it? Everything we say contains a layered thought...and we are very good at that, aren't we lol?
"We cannot follow the law perfectly, neither Christians nor Jews or anybody else. We are ALL sinners. We all need grace, none of deserves to enter Heaven by our deeds. You are correct that only God is without sin, perfect." - no, Christians can't follow the law entirely (since they eat most of the forbidden meats, some have sex while menstruating, they don't respect the separation law after giving birth; they don't dedicate Saturday to the Lord, they don't wear the teffilin nor the tzitzit, they don't celebrate Passover, Shavuot, the Atonement Day, the feast of Tarbenacle, they worship other than God Itself etc); but for the devout Jewish people this isn't hard to do, in fact it is an utter must. Ok, we are all sinners cause we all sin one way or another, but what about atonement? Doesn't it exist so that we can realise our error and then ask God for forgiveness (which He will bestow upon us)?
"Yes God does condemn following other “gods”. There is only one God and one way to Him. God tells us more than one thing in the passage I quoted. He clearly hates divorce, and He hates the injustice that goes with it." - of course you are speaking under a Christian perspective. That passage was about Jewish people, and their turning their backs against God, by marrying the daughters of false gods, forsaking their Jewish wives (this is the type of divorce God hates).
"Understand that I am NOT saying that divorce is always forbidden. God does hate divorce but it is allowed under certain circumstances, Jesus and Paul both speak of this and I am aware of the OT statements on the topic. I am simply trying to make the point at how important marriage is to God, and therefore how evil adultery is." - hating and forbiding are two different things. God didn't forbid divorce, in fact He commanded it under certain circumstances. Anti-divorce is a Christian concept. God hated the fact that Jewish men would marry women who followed false gods (who would later corrupt them - ex: Solomon) and forsake their Jewish wives.
Adultery and divorce are two different things (although I am aware that for Christians it is the same; since what God united no man shall part). If adultery were that evil, Solomon wouldn't have been born (and he was Israel's greatest king ever) - his dad, David, committed adultery with his mom, Bathsheba, who got pregnant (the baby died); and then after they married got pregnant again and the greatest king was born. Adultery had to occur so that the one who would build the temple could be born.
"Very good points, lets explore them…." - yes, let's please :)....
"As I have said at other times in our conversations “kill” is more accurately translated as “murder”. There is a difference. To kill is not an illegal or immoral action, there are legitimate reasons to take human life. It is not something to be done with cavalier abandon but it is permissible for example in self defense." - this is an excellent explanation, my friend *bowing*. But killing and murdering is still taking a life, which only God can do. Taking a life is wrong...no matter if it is in self-defense or not (the question is: is it understandable? Or is it reproachable? We would say: no) - the proof of that is that when humans take somebody's life, even in self-defense, they feel guilty and take a while before recovering from that act (even some soldiers, knowing that it's either their life or the opponent's, have a hard time dealing with their taking lives.
"Why is murder wrong? I mean this beyond the simple declaration that it is wrong as God says (which is enough in itself)? God is life. He is the Living One. Humans are made in His “image”. Murder of another person is an attack against God because He is the One from Whom life comes, and we are created in His “image”. All of the commandments go back to the nature of God and relationship with Him." - I agree.
"God is relationally perfect (as a Christian I would say this is best exemplified in the His Triunity, but it is also evident without that perspective). When we sin in our relationships (adultery is our current example) we are breaking relationship. This also includes the fact that God is Love. Adultery is an adversary of love, and therefore an adversary of God. Adultery like murder is must be seen in the light of God’s character and nature." - all right; I respect your Christian views on this. However, what if there isn't any love in a relationship, nor bond, nor one flesh? What if a marriage was forced and there is no way to get out of it? Is adultery still reproachable? Should we turn our faces to sex ethics?
"There are just wars such as that in Joshua. Interestingly the Jews did not follow God’s instructions and so the war goes on to this day…." - indeed, I agree with you. But the day will come when the Jewish people will follow God's instructions again and the wars will cease.
"There are couples where sex is no big deal. They don’t have much desire for it and can happily live together in a loving marriage. " - I agree. There are people to whom sex is not important; but those wouldn't commit adultery. I am talking about those to whom sex matters...
"Sex is not everything!LOL" - LOL it is not indeed. But it plays an important part in any relationship, in a sense that it is an expression of ultimate connection. The energies that melt together during that act are incredible. Not to mention what it does at hormone level...
"If one of the partners of the one flesh still desires sex and the other partner does not want to engage init then the partner neglecting the other is sinning, but if one chooses to commit adultery because of this they are also sinning. Lets be clear we will not be perfectly happy at all times on this planet, either married or unmarried." - Indeed, to neglect marital rights it is a sin. But what about if one of the spouses is gay (thus not one flesh), the couple never slept together yet got married to maintain appearances, and decide that they will see other people? Is this reproachable? Is the word adultery applicable here? I disagree with you, we can be perfectly happy all the time on this planet, despite all things in life (note that going occasionally down, doesn't mean that one isn't happy).
"Yet God does permit divorce under two circumstances. Jesus makes it clear that divorce is allowable if there is adultery (Matthew 5:31-32) and if you are a Christian and your spouse abandons the marriage over a long term with clear intent to never return, desertion (1 Corinthians 7:10-16). And the persons are free to remarry." - Ah, I see. But this is not applicable to every Christian group. Cause in the Catholic Church they will do everything to prevent the couple from divorcing (stating that it militates against God) and then if they still go ahead with the decision they cannot remarry through the church. In my granny's evangelical church people cannot remarry either...I guess it is different from group to group.
"Actually you are missing Jesus point entirely Max…" - am I? Let me check that...
"The word “looks” enfolds the concept of a lingering look, a considered look, an observing examining look. The word “lustfully” expresses a desire, longing, lustful covetousness, such as after someone or something forbidden. These two must come together for this to be this particular sin, they are inextricably intertwined. Therefore a simple appreciation of the beauty of another person or of creation such as a waterfall is not a sin." - LS, I said «there is always some bad-intended woman trying to seduce somebody's husband (if he for a second thinks about it, yet doesn't yield to her enchantments - according to Jesus - he is still committing adultery» isn't this the same as sinning? If the man thinks about having sex with that woman, in the back of his mind he already sees himself taking off her clothes...but then declines to actually step into action; he is sinning, right? I think I got Jesus' point....
"So just because a person may be attempting to tempt a person to sin does not mean the person being tempted is actually sinning." - if the person being tempted sees in his mind foreplaying with this woman, according to Jesus' own words, he is sinning already.
"Example: If a woman is trying to “hit on me” this does not mean I am sinning. If I were to go thru the process I described above (“looks”, “lustfully”) then I would be sinning and adultery would be “lurking in my marriage”." - I said «If he doesn't think about it nor succumbs to her then he sins not». Your second part of the sentence, supports what I said in my previous counter-comment, LS.
"LOL Yes we can agree that God is using a figure of speech but it does nothing to lessen the degree of how He sees the bond of marriage. To often people do not really take in the seriousness of marriage. It is enormously serious; the fact that the language is figurative does not lessen the degree of His meaning. Far too many people think that marriage is about “being happy”. Well it is more than about “being happy”." - I agree with you that marriage is an extremely serious matter. We shouldn't take it lightly. However, not all marriages become one flesh. I agree with you, once again, people nowadays distort the concept of the marriage institution. "Being happy" often implies selfish motives for one to get married *nodding*. Plus, happiness comes from within; if one is not happy by nature he/she won't be happy in marriage.
"I love that passage of Isaiah!!! It is one of the first chapters of Scripture I ever memorized!!! Very cool!!!" - :) Very cool indeed, my friend *bowing*.
"I memorized it just after this part of Scripture that goes so well with it:" - lol "I am shocked at how provocative you can be" lol...
"LOL Of course from a Christian point of view Romans is as much God’s Word as Genesis is…" - LOL of course from my point of view Genesis is God's word, Romans is Inflammatory P's.
"LOL Are you trying to be inflammatory M? LOL Just joking you know I appreciate your forthright language, I am hoping to get even more of it while wheedling down the mystery. LOL" - LOL LOL I actually like it LOL LOL....*nodding*...
"There is only one “Christian group”, the Church (of course there are many frauds and charlatans). I was speaking of course in the context of adultery. This is no controversy in the Church, adultery is sin. I have never met a genuine Christian that would say otherwise." - Roman Catholic Church + Greek Orthodox (1 group), Russian Orthodox (1 group), Anglicans (1 group), Evangelicals (1 group), Protestants (1 group), Mormons (1 group), Jehovah Witnesses (1 group)...all Jesus worshippers.
"There is symbology in Scripture which is in the vast majority of cases discernable." - lol yeah, discernable as it will...*nodding*.
"There are actually vast swaths of Scripture that Jewish and Christians agree upon…." - lol which type of Jewish and which type of Christian?
"Hey us agreeing is worthy of a comment! I like it!! LOL" - LOL LOL I like it too :).
"I believe this was covered earlier. It is sin to force a person to marry another. It is sin to force sex upon another. At a more simple less dramatic level humans are incapable of perfect relationships. Yet we do have the perfect “model” or “standard” in God, He says adultery is sin." - It is a sin yet people do it (and Christians have a long history of doing this). Rape is an utter sin. Yes, He said it "If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits aadultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10), however God let David live, why? Are there exceptions to His commandment after all?
"Good enough for me. I can tell you personally that if my wife refused to have sex with me for the rest of my life I would not have sex with another person." - My dear friend; I respectfully say that you have had enough of fun for the rest of your life; so I wouldn't be surprised if you wouldn't have sex with another person under the mentioned circumstances.
"What if she was ill for the rest of my life and we could not have sex? The importance of sex diminishes under such circumstances if one is correctly applying the will in regards to love. There is more to life than sex, it is simply one component." - I have answered in the previous point to this. But I agree that when one spouse is sick the other spouse may, at first or during a certain period of time, forget about sex. But what happens after a few years when the healthy spouse meets another person?
"...is it wrong? [Yes it is sin]" - I didn't ask if it is a sin. I asked if it is wrong to commit that sin. Is it reproachable? Unethical?
"If a man marries a woman, and one of them is gay but they remain married...do you think that the heterosexual spouse should remain sexless? [Yes]" - LOL LOL *nodding*...I respect your views LOL....
"Now let me engage this a little more. What if a spouse comes down with a health condition that means they could no longer have sexual relations? This should not change the commitment the healthy partner has to the other in their marriage. Just because the world runs after sex as their god does not mean it is right. Adultery is sin, it is really very simple." - you are right, it doesn't alter the commitment, but what if the couple agrees; what if they commit that the healthy spouse should see someone?
You are right: the world runs after sex, which is sad. But those who do not have it are bitter people, a bunch of frustrated-bursting-with-sexual-tension beings who transfer their frustrations and lack of sex onto others making their lives miserable (just because they are).
"LOL So would you like to give me an example of how once a person is married to another person God “tries” to make things right? Do you believe He uses adultery?" - I have already showed you that He uses adultery (David example). Of course, Prince Charles is the example...he and Camilla have always loved each other, they were obviously each other's Bashert, but then politics and protocol got in their way, he had to marry Diana (who was younger and had royal blood). God made things right by keeping them together, despite Charles being married to Diana lol.
"That is people living in a life of fornication, sin. You could apply the term adultery as we discussed earlier but a wider audience would call it fornication, I am fine with either or both under the situation you describe. It’s a sin." - but LS, when Jesus was alive there was not the concept of marriage as we know it today. If people lived under the same roof and slept together they were immediately considered man and wife - was this fornication then? No. So why should it be considered fornication/sin just because Christianity says so? It is not fornication.
"For about 15 years we were 1 year but several years ago they set the number at 6 months. The government recognized the havoc the situation was placing upon society and thought it prudent to change the law." - I thought you had said 5 months....
"The Scripture says: “You shall not commit adultery”, there are no amendments to this text in Scripture." - but apparently there was for David...
"It no where says ““You shall not commit adultery unless your spouse becomes disabled and can no longer engage in sexual relations then go ahead and have sex with any cute blond over 21 that will help you receive sexual release” or any other kind of thing." - LOL LOL why does everybody relate blonds to adultery? LOL Poor blonds...*nodding*. I loved this answers of yours lol....
"Marriage is serious stuff. People don’t like others telling them how to “run their sex life”, they don’t want to hear it even from including God. He is very clear on the matter. His will is more important than our sexual gratification." - I agree that marriage is serious stuff. I think people don't want to hear it from men. Men spend so much time judging others that people refuse to listen to them, and therefore God's words. If we all judged less, people would listen more to the words of God.
"Trust me I like sex but it is unimportant in the grand plan of God and His will for my life. I also have experienced God’s transforming power in my life in regards to sex and everything else in life so I understand that by His power a life can be changed, upgraded." - I hear you...
"Actually there is quite a difference. As I said just above “there are no amendments” making adultery a “none sin”. There are however substantial portions of Scripture that delineate killing, murder and war, capital punishment etc." - well, I could defend that taking a life is taking a life, no matter what. And as I said before: for David there was an amendment, for he wasn't killed like the law says.
"I took your “wrong person” within the context I thought you were presenting which was in parameters of God having the “right person” for you and you choosing the “wrong person”." - I was talking about people who choose wrong, since many times they go against what God designs for them.
"If as man is beating his wife he is sinning and the woman should if at all possible remove herself from living in that situation. An attempt at reconciliation should also be attempted, the man must change." - what?! Come on...once a man beats on his wife, you can be sure that he will repeat it sooner or later...there is no change.
"The husband is allowed to divorce his wife if she has behaved in the manner you describe above (she has committed adultery, sin). Yet once again reconciliation is far better." - lol ok. This type of woman will repeat the same thing again and again...they can reconcile, yet she will repeat the same thing....
"Karma lacks true justice and is an affront to the holiness of God and also militates against God’s grace. God’s grace is not needed if a person is able to work their way into Heaven, karma is a loser, and grace is the winner." - LOL karma is the true justice - what you do today, will come back tomorrow. You do wrong you'll pay...this is justice.
"Many people make up excuses so they “can” sin." - true...
"LOL Max you must see how this could be seen as you promoting adultery. You should have a disclaimer somewhere on your blog! LOL" - LOL as I said, I am not promoting anything since I am just asking questions that people ask. Those who would think this don't know me, so they are free to think whatever they wish...
"I mean it is called MAX so it infers it is your convictions you are speaking of!! LOL" - LOL I see where you are coming from LOL....
"I can see it now “The comments and ideas expressed by Max should in no way be taken as actually representing her views”. LOL I love it! Would you like me to add it to the header? LOL" - LOL LOL LOL we may consider it LOL :)
"I love talking with you Max it is an excellent adventure…." - thank you, my friend *bowing*! I also love talking to you...you have a brilliant mind :D!
Thanks for this lovely moment :).
Cheers