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When we are little kids we are taught that we must tell the truth at all times, otherwise we will suffer the consequences. From that moment onwards we immediately feel the weight of continuously being truthful on our shoulders.
During childhood the guilt felt after telling a lie is excruciating (in our mind it keeps playing “you’ll suffer the consequences! You’ll suffer the consequences”).
Then we grow up, to become teenagers, and begin to realise the nuances of life: sometimes telling the truth can bring more problems than benefits. Yet we battle ourselves with the orders given in our childhood and with the acquired knowledge on life. What to do? We apply the learnt concept of white lie and Management of Truth 101: a teenage girl tells her parents that she’s going over to her girlfriend’s house to study...she “forgets” to mention that boys will be there with no adult supervision “Ok, you may go, honey! Just be back before dinner time!” says mom...
Adulthood is reached. We have enough experience on Lies Vs Truth to know how to juggle the two. However we still battle: the instructions inserted in our mind, when kids, still cry out loud, they ponder inside our head to implement at all times one of the moral values that is most appreciated (yet feared): the truth.
On the other hand, our professional life many times demands either the omission of truth, its counterfeit or even its management.
We also find out that in order to have a social life...we often start out by either omitting the truth, counterfeiting it or managing it in such a way that later on when the social targets (be it friends, lovers, spouses, neighbours etc) complete the puzzle, they are so smitten by us that they won’t mind (most probably because they did the same at least once in their life – humans seem to be extremely forgiving when they can relate with a situation).
Now you could ask: but doesn’t the truth counterfeit and management = a lie?
Answer: no, not exactly. You see, lying is to purposely tell something untrue that might have nefast consequences upon the discovery of the truth (people might get hurt, offended, injured or even perish).
Counterfeiting the truth is crucial in situations related to national security, such as espionage, special ops, under-covered jobs etc; where new identities are created, new behaviours are designed and a whole new life story (& history) is fabricated.
Managing the truth is to produce a mask to be worn in public yet allowing glimpses of truth to shine upon relationships (of any sort). For example: management of truth is a vital tool used in politics (specially in diplomacy), in business and in public relations if panic is to be avoided.
Truth management is also a behavioural concept used between couples, friends, siblings, neighbours, within a community if peace and harmony are to be kept.
This type of management is many times used in cases of privacy protection.
And finally it can be used as a defence mechanism (we fabricate stories within the real story in order to self-acquit ourselves for not being truthful).
We love truth, we need it, we want it; however how prepared are we to embrace the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
During childhood the guilt felt after telling a lie is excruciating (in our mind it keeps playing “you’ll suffer the consequences! You’ll suffer the consequences”).
Then we grow up, to become teenagers, and begin to realise the nuances of life: sometimes telling the truth can bring more problems than benefits. Yet we battle ourselves with the orders given in our childhood and with the acquired knowledge on life. What to do? We apply the learnt concept of white lie and Management of Truth 101: a teenage girl tells her parents that she’s going over to her girlfriend’s house to study...she “forgets” to mention that boys will be there with no adult supervision “Ok, you may go, honey! Just be back before dinner time!” says mom...
Adulthood is reached. We have enough experience on Lies Vs Truth to know how to juggle the two. However we still battle: the instructions inserted in our mind, when kids, still cry out loud, they ponder inside our head to implement at all times one of the moral values that is most appreciated (yet feared): the truth.
On the other hand, our professional life many times demands either the omission of truth, its counterfeit or even its management.
We also find out that in order to have a social life...we often start out by either omitting the truth, counterfeiting it or managing it in such a way that later on when the social targets (be it friends, lovers, spouses, neighbours etc) complete the puzzle, they are so smitten by us that they won’t mind (most probably because they did the same at least once in their life – humans seem to be extremely forgiving when they can relate with a situation).
Now you could ask: but doesn’t the truth counterfeit and management = a lie?
Answer: no, not exactly. You see, lying is to purposely tell something untrue that might have nefast consequences upon the discovery of the truth (people might get hurt, offended, injured or even perish).
Counterfeiting the truth is crucial in situations related to national security, such as espionage, special ops, under-covered jobs etc; where new identities are created, new behaviours are designed and a whole new life story (& history) is fabricated.
Managing the truth is to produce a mask to be worn in public yet allowing glimpses of truth to shine upon relationships (of any sort). For example: management of truth is a vital tool used in politics (specially in diplomacy), in business and in public relations if panic is to be avoided.
Truth management is also a behavioural concept used between couples, friends, siblings, neighbours, within a community if peace and harmony are to be kept.
This type of management is many times used in cases of privacy protection.
And finally it can be used as a defence mechanism (we fabricate stories within the real story in order to self-acquit ourselves for not being truthful).
We love truth, we need it, we want it; however how prepared are we to embrace the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
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Hello Maximus!
ReplyDeleteIt is as always a pleasure to investigate the “Max Factor” on yet another fascinating subject….
Congratulations on your usual sterling performance my dear…
You said:
When we are little kids we are taught that we must tell the truth at all times, otherwise we will suffer the consequences. From that moment onwards we immediately feel the weight of continuously being truthful on our shoulders.
During childhood the guilt felt after telling a lie is excruciating (in our mind it keeps playing “you’ll suffer the consequences! You’ll suffer the consequences”).
I respond:
I would say that intrinsically humans understand there is truth…or more so Truth. It may be masked by them behind smoke and mirrors yet they know “it” is there. We may not feel bad about lying to others but we certainly feel bad when they lie to us, which means that we acknowledge there is some standard even if we do not want it applied to ourselves.
You said:
Then we grow up, to become teenagers, and begin to realise the nuances of life: sometimes telling the truth can bring more problems than benefits. Yet we battle ourselves with the orders given in our childhood and with the acquired knowledge on life. What to do? We apply the learnt concept of white lie and Management of Truth 101: a teenage girl tells her parents that she’s going over to her girlfriend’s house to study...she “forgets” to mention that boys will be there with no adult supervision “Ok, you may go, honey! Just be back before dinner time!” says mom...
I respond:
Once again there is acknowledgment that indeed there is an absolute standard of Truth even if we attempt to obscure it, after all there is no need to play “slight of hand” with the truth if it is not absolute.
There are times when information should be withheld (not the case with the teenage girl example) yet the passivity is not deception but privacy or responsibility to preserve a greater good (A nation states secrets against enemies that mean ill etc). All of this is an example of our Fallen nature. The teenage girl is outright being deceptive (read lying) and has no right to be so under the provided example, she is under the authority of her parents and should therefore divulge this kind of information.
You said:
Adulthood is reached. We have enough experience on Lies Vs Truth to know how to juggle the two. However we still battle: the instructions inserted in our mind, when kids, still cry out loud, they ponder inside our head to implement at all times one of the moral values that is most appreciated (yet feared): the truth.
On the other hand, our professional life many times demands either the omission of truth, its counterfeit or even its management
I respond:
I find the use of the word “juggle” here most interesting in light of how I used the word in my article!!!
I would suggest that by the time we get to adulthood there is a lot more information that has been contributed to our knowledge base in this regard than simply childhood programming indeed often in the teenage years rebellion begins (your daughter example) and we often live in a war zone of Trojan Horse lie-viruses and this does not slow unless we have an epiphany with the Truth….We live in a battleground of deceptions….and misconceptions.
You said:
We also find out that in order to have a social life...we often start out by either omitting the truth, counterfeiting it or managing it in such a way that later on when the social targets (be it friends, lovers, spouses, neighbours etc) complete the puzzle, they are so smitten by us that they won’t mind (most probably because they did the same at least once in their life – humans seem to be extremely forgiving when they can relate with a situation).
I respond:
Often people do live in the terror of the time bombs of deception will go off devastating the relationships around them. I really like your point on people being forgiving towards situations they can relate to even pertaining to lies. I will go further than that…people are often soft on certain behaviours (sexual, lies, theft, violence, drugs etc) because they will then see it as permissive for them to step over the line in those or other ways. Also as they step over the line they compare themselves to those others that are even further over the line so they then feel they don’t look so bad….People are obsessed with comparing their level of “good behaviour” to others so as to assess themselves as superior…often this is the case with those that are religious (understanding my use of this word from previous conversations).
You said:
Now you could ask: but doesn’t the truth counterfeit and management = a lie?
Answer: no, not exactly. You see, lying is to purposely tell something untrue that might have nefast consequences upon the discovery of the truth (people might get hurt, offended, injured or even perish).
I respond:
As you know in Survivor I do not get on players cases for being deceptive as that is an agreed part of the game, it can be a tactic or even strategy (just as in cards you may try to make others think you have different cards in your hand or plays in football that make the defenders run after the wrong player etc). In war you certainly do not want the enemy to know all your plans as lives are in the balance. In life there is also privacy, our own and others to whom we are beholden (employers, family members, governments etc) so it would at these times be bad to provide certain kinds of information even if they are the truth.
You said:
Counterfeiting the truth is crucial in situations related to national security, such as espionage, special ops, under-covered jobs etc; where new identities are created, new behaviours are designed and a whole new life story (& history) is fabricated.
Managing the truth is to produce a mask to be worn in public yet allowing glimpses of truth to shine upon relationships (of any sort). For example: management of truth is a vital tool used in politics (specially in diplomacy), in business and in public relations if panic is to be avoided.
I respond:
The responsibilities and rights of a nation state are not the same as an individual and therefore those acting in those situations are under a lot greater accountability for their actions by God (as are those teaching His Word). These are some of the reason that when people abuse their authority the penalty must also be heavier, we must guard against abuse of these kinds of potential abuses…
You said:
Truth management is also a behavioural concept used between couples, friends, siblings, neighbours, within a community if peace and harmony are to be kept.
This type of management is many times used in cases of privacy protection.
And finally it can be used as a defence mechanism (we fabricate stories within the real story in order to self-acquit ourselves for not being truthful).
I respond:
LOL OK if my wife says to me “how do I look in this dress? And I think she should instead go put on the cute black number how should I answer her question? (I know my answer but I am interested I yours…:) (Dear Abbey?) LOL
You said:
We love truth, we need it, we want it; however how prepared are we to embrace the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
I respond:
Often we try to trick ourselves as to the Truth (yet the Truth remains the Truth). Embracing the Truth does not mean we will never sin and intentionally lie but if we have truly embraced Truth then there should be a transformation in our lives in this regard.
The question is how willing are we to be embraced by the Truth? :)
Excellent article Maximus! An interesting note…MS Word tells me your article has 561 words and mine has 539!!! Finally I have written a shorter article than you!!! However I will not count typos :)
Great job dear….
Oh truth... this is a complex subject!
ReplyDeleteI do believe in being diplomatic and tactful, so I guess I do lie once in a while. But I met a lot of people who praised themselves on being honest and at the end, they were just rude.
There is a thin line...
What a delight to read, Max!!! I LOVE your last sentence. I find that in exposing the truth (there was a time in my life when I was trying to expose the truth about myself to my closest friends and some other chosen people), I realize that not everybody is ready to accept that amount of truth. I must say that I could almost feel that some of them preferred that I hadn't exposed myself that "nakedly", so to speak.
ReplyDeleteBefore that period of time, I used to be SOOOOOOO introverted and I wouldn't really expose myself...now I've learnt the balance. If I think that other person isn't ready to hear the truth, then I won't do it.
Forgot to say: THANKS SO MUCH for your recommendation in Entrecard!!!!! HUGS and LOVE!!!
ReplyDeleteHello LSus!
ReplyDelete"It is as always a pleasure to investigate the “Max Factor” on yet another fascinating subject…" - *bowing*....
"Congratulations on your usual sterling performance my dear" - why, thank you, darling :D! You know that I am still singing that song...lol?
"I would say that intrinsically humans understand there is truth…or more so Truth. It may be masked by them behind smoke and mirrors yet they know “it” is there." - I also believe that all humans know that there is Truth. But as I told you in your blog's comment section, they decide to yield to illusion...
"We may not feel bad about lying to others but we certainly feel bad when they lie to us, which means that we acknowledge there is some standard even if we do not want it applied to ourselves." - Aaah, kids feel bad when they lie to others; yet adults may not. LOL true, we do not like it when people lie to us. That is an interesting view that I will leave untouched...*bowing*.
"Once again there is acknowledgment that indeed there is an absolute standard of Truth even if we attempt to obscure it, after all there is no need to play “slight of hand” with the truth if it is not absolute." - keep trying, LS lol *nodding*....we are talking about the aknowledgement that telling the truth many times brings more troubles than benefits...what is your opinion on that?
"There are times when information should be withheld (not the case with the teenage girl example) yet the passivity is not deception but privacy or responsibility to preserve a greater good (A nation states secrets against enemies that mean ill etc)." - I agree...
"The teenage girl is outright being deceptive (read lying) and has no right to be so under the provided example, she is under the authority of her parents and should therefore divulge this kind of information." - LOL LOL LOL LOL *sigh*...you never told a white lie when you were a teen? So, why are you being so hard on this girl lol? Anyway, I would agree with you that she lied since her conceiling the information could've resulted in serious troubles that not only could've got her into troubles (sexual violence, for example) but also upset/hurt her parents.
"I find the use of the word “juggle” here most interesting in light of how I used the word in my article!!!" - LOL yes, I noticed it! Perhaps you are really a psychic, and you don't know yet lol :)!
"I would suggest that by the time we get to adulthood there is a lot more information that has been contributed to our knowledge base in this regard than simply childhood programming indeed often in the teenage years rebellion begins (your daughter example) and we often live in a war zone of Trojan Horse lie-viruses and this does not slow unless we have an epiphany with the Truth….We live in a battleground of deceptions….and misconceptions." - "(you daughter example)" I don't have kids yet, LS [lol]. Yes, but we can't deny that the information transmitted during childhood influences a lot our behaviour during adulthood (even though we learn many more other things, even though we learn that it is not always convenient to tell the truth).
"I really like your point on people being forgiving towards situations they can relate to even pertaining to lies. I will go further than that…people are often soft on certain behaviours (sexual, lies, theft, violence, drugs etc) because they will then see it as permissive for them to step over the line in those or other ways." - Thank you *bowing*! But your further analysis is a bit harsh, isn't it, LS? I think that there are beings who are forgiving, or understanding, or "soft" (as you put it) towards people who lie or engage in certain behaviours, not because they see it as a green light to emulate them or "step over the line", but because they find they have no right to judge them. What they do, is between them and God. Let me say this in your language: how can a sinner judge another sinner? Why not let it for God, Who is without sin, do it?
"Also as they step over the line they compare themselves to those others that are even further over the line so they then feel they don’t look so bad….People are obsessed with comparing their level of “good behaviour” to others so as to assess themselves as superior…often this is the case with those that are religious (understanding my use of this word from previous conversations)." - I hear you.
"As you know in Survivor I do not get on players cases for being deceptive as that is an agreed part of the game, it can be a tactic or even strategy (just as in cards you may try to make others think you have different cards in your hand or plays in football that make the defenders run after the wrong player etc)." - yes, I know, and yes, I agree.
"In war you certainly do not want the enemy to know all your plans as lives are in the balance. In life there is also privacy, our own and others to whom we are beholden (employers, family members, governments etc) so it would at these times be bad to provide certain kinds of information even if they are the truth." - Absolutely!
"The responsibilities and rights of a nation state are not the same as an individual and therefore those acting in those situations are under a lot greater accountability for their actions by God (as are those teaching His Word)." - I totally agree with you. May God bless those men and women for their courage.
"These are some of the reason that when people abuse their authority the penalty must also be heavier, we must guard against abuse of these kinds of potential abuses…" - yes...
"LOL OK if my wife says to me “how do I look in this dress? And I think she should instead go put on the cute black number how should I answer her question? (I know my answer but I am interested I yours…:) (Dear Abbey?) LOL" - LOL LOL LOL *nodding*! LOL Dear LS, if you think that your wife looks better in the "cute black number" you should tell her "You look great on that one, but you look hotter on that cute black one you tried on the other day"...but let me tell you that most women are odd species, when they have their mind set on something it is useless to give them any advice (on the other hand if you don't offer an advice, they'll say you don't care and blah, blah, blah). But only you know your wife, who knows if she doesn't belong to the few who are splendid beings (read: lay off men's back)! [LOL].
However, this section was targeting those situations when men throw their clothes on the floor and when women ask "why did you do this?" they'll answer "I was so tired, and then I forgot to pick them up" (when in fact they wished to say "Woman, I worked all day...lay off!" LOL) or when women (make the mistake to) ask "Do I look fat?" (what a classic) and they say "you look fine!" (when in fact they meant "a bit!" but don't just to avoid an armageddon LOL LOL). And situations as such...
"Often we try to trick ourselves as to the Truth (yet the Truth remains the Truth). Embracing the Truth does not mean we will never sin and intentionally lie but if we have truly embraced Truth then there should be a transformation in our lives in this regard." - darling, I was talking about the truth nor Truth. But I understand what you mean by this, as I explained in your blog. By the way, I must go back there today...
"The question is how willing are we to be embraced by the Truth? :)" - it is a very good question! I can speak to myself: I am totally willing to be embraced by Him!
"Excellent article Maximus! An interesting note…MS Word tells me your article has 561 words and mine has 539!!! Finally I have written a shorter article than you!!! However I will not count typos :)" - Thank you, LS *bowing*! LOL LOL LOL LOL indeed you have! No, let's not count the typos ;)!
"Great job dear…." - thanks :D!
And thank you for this amazing, superb, fantastic conversation: always a delight, darling :D!
Cheers
Hi Zhu! :D
ReplyDelete"Oh truth... this is a complex subject!" - indeed...
"I do believe in being diplomatic and tactful, so I guess I do lie once in a while. But I met a lot of people who praised themselves on being honest and at the end, they were just rude." - LOL being diplomatic is not lying, it is managing the truth; since you are not saying it to hurt people, au contraire...you do it exactly to avoid people getting hurt.
Ah, excellent point you bring! Yes, there are people who think that they own the truth and so start telling people their version of it, ending up by offending others...so sad.
Even to tell the truth, one must know how to talk (cause some people are sensitive, and we must respect that).
"There is a thin line..." - c'est vrai!
Darling, thank you so much for your contribution; and once again you added a great point thus enriching this article :D!
Cheers
Hey Amelia :D!
ReplyDelete"What a delight to read, Max!!! I LOVE your last sentence." - thank you so much *bowing*!
"I find that in exposing the truth (there was a time in my life when I was trying to expose the truth about myself to my closest friends and some other chosen people), I realize that not everybody is ready to accept that amount of truth. I must say that I could almost feel that some of them preferred that I hadn't exposed myself that "nakedly", so to speak." - I know what you mean! It is the issue of not being ready, nor willing, to embrace the truth. Sometimes people just prefer others to wear masks so that they can keep theirs on; know what I mean?
"Before that period of time, I used to be SOOOOOOO introverted and I wouldn't really expose myself...now I've learnt the balance. If I think that other person isn't ready to hear the truth, then I won't do it." - yes, balance is the word. Well done :D!
Girl, you too brought another perspective to the arena, for which I thank you a million times :D!
Cheers
Gorgeous,
ReplyDeleteYou are welcome, I meant every word of it :D!
Hugs and love, darling!!
hi max! glad to know you had a delightful one. cheers
ReplyDeleteMAX:
ReplyDeleteI have always believed that you should live your life as close to the truth as is humanly possible. My dad didn't pound that into my head, it was always assumed that I would be honest in all things I did. But after I was grown I discovered that he had not been truthful himself, and it deeply affected me. I can't imagine that anything could hurt worse than to find out that someone has been untrustful with you.
Great topic.
Happy trails
Max,
ReplyDeleteGreat topic! I think you have really hit on some important points. I think because I was taught as a child not to lie, I learned quickly that, as you said, you can be honest, but still "manage" the truth. If someone is wearing an ugly dress, and asks your opinion, you don't have to say you think it's ugly. You can find something about it that you do like, such as the color. "Oh that color goes well with your skin!". You haven't spoken a mistruth, but you haven't divulged all truth.
"We love truth, we need it, we want it; however how prepared are we to embrace the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?" This is the million dollar question! :) I do think that there are some truths that we would rather not know. Great post!
Hey Liza,
ReplyDeleteThanks, darling :D!
Have a great week!
Cheers
Hey Swu :D!
ReplyDelete"I have always believed that you should live your life as close to the truth as is humanly possible. My dad didn't pound that into my head, it was always assumed that I would be honest in all things I did." - I know what you mean, buddy...
"But after I was grown I discovered that he had not been truthful himself, and it deeply affected me. I can't imagine that anything could hurt worse than to find out that someone has been untrustful with you." - I think that that must be one of the greatest disappointments one can ever have in his life: to find out that a parent is not entirely truthful (it happens to everybody, I believe)! It seems like a truck runs over us *nodding*.
"Great topic." - thanks, my friend *bowing*!
And thank you so much for having shared your personal experience (I appreciate it) :)!
Cheers
Hey D! :D
ReplyDelete"Great topic! I think you have really hit on some important points." - thank you *bowing*!
"I think because I was taught as a child not to lie, I learned quickly that, as you said, you can be honest, but still "manage" the truth. If someone is wearing an ugly dress, and asks your opinion, you don't have to say you think it's ugly. You can find something about it that you do like, such as the color. "Oh that color goes well with your skin!". You haven't spoken a mistruth, but you haven't divulged all truth." - exactly!! There is no point of hurting someone over a dress. There are so many ways of going around the truth, without lying exactly.
"This is the million dollar question! :)" - LOL :)
"I do think that there are some truths that we would rather not know. Great post!" - you know what? I do agree with you, girl! Thanks :D!
D, I must thank you for this amazing comment...you brought a great example, and you offered a great answer to the "million dollar question" ;D!
Cheers
Hey Max,
ReplyDeleteI love the term "Truth Management." that is indeed what we do; we manage the truth to benefit ourselves (how cynical of me.) In other words, it is a form of manipulation.....who knew that we were so manipulative (LOL.)
I do have to take issue with your basic starting point of "When we are little kids we are taught that we must tell the truth at all times, otherwise we will suffer the consequences. From that moment onwards we immediately feel the weight of continuously being truthful on our shoulders.
During childhood the guilt felt after telling a lie is excruciating (in our mind it keeps playing “you’ll suffer the consequences! You’ll suffer the consequences”)." I find kids to be the biggest liars of all (in a nice way, or course.) Kids, very early on realize, as we discussed in your last post, that they "want." Possession and ownership helps define them. Kids are also known to test limits (who knew?) In this limit testing phase (probably lasting 18 years) they quickly learn that misrepresenting the truth helps get them what they want. Boy, am I getting off track here.....parenting is the critical aspect of truth management in kids (maybe not that far off.) If kids see that their parents lie, then proper parenting becomes extremely difficult.
Parents have to teach by example mores so than by words.
I feel like I am addressing two different topics here.
I guess, brining it all together, adults do have to lie in order to, as you stated: "For example: management of truth is a vital tool used in politics (specially in diplomacy), in business and in public relations if panic is to be avoided.
Truth management is also a behavioural concept used between couples, friends, siblings, neighbours, within a community if peace and harmony are to be kept.
This type of management is many times used in cases of privacy protection.
And finally it can be used as a defence mechanism (we fabricate stories within the real story in order to self-acquit ourselves for not being truthful)." So then how can we teach our kids to be truthful and to never lie, unless they have to, of course?
Hey Mel! :D
ReplyDelete"I love the term "Truth Management." that is indeed what we do; we manage the truth to benefit ourselves (how cynical of me.) In other words, it is a form of manipulation.....who knew that we were so manipulative (LOL.)" - LOL well, we can also manage the truth to benefit others (benefit = not being hurt or offended by our true thoughts or opinion).
LOL LOL LOL I must applaude you *clap clap clap* you are the first to address the targeted concept: manipulation! Truth management is some sort of manipulation indeed, because it is used to meet any type of end. We manipulate the truth to reach our goals; we manipulate people to tells us the type of truth it is convenient for us,and so forth...
"I find kids to be the biggest liars of all (in a nice way, or course.) Kids, very early on realize, as we discussed in your last post, that they "want." Possession and ownership helps define them. Kids are also known to test limits (who knew?) In this limit testing phase (probably lasting 18 years) they quickly learn that misrepresenting the truth helps get them what they want. Boy, am I getting off track here.....parenting is the critical aspect of truth management in kids (maybe not that far off.) If kids see that their parents lie, then proper parenting becomes extremely difficult." - extremely good point! I wouldn't call kids the biggest liars, but the kings of manipulation LOL.
Now, what did I mean by "since kids we are taught to tell the truth at all times"? I was trying to see who would pick on the "Mind flexibility" concept...you see, when parents teach their kids to tell the truth at all times what they really mean is "tell the truth to ME at all times" (or rather, tell the truth always inside the family); but since they can't tell a 3 years old kid that there are two types of telling the truth (the real one - at home - and then the managed one - outside the family circle), not to mess up with his mind, they blow that commandment into the kid's ears, hoping that one day Life will teach him the real story, teach them how to mentally flexible (of course, some parents see themselves having to explain the difference between the two truths when kids become teens. Others just let their kids find out by themselves). Kids then are confronted with the stark reality: parents manage the truth when teaching their kids about truth; who in turn they will end up by doing the exact same thing to their own kids.
"Parents have to teach by example mores so than by words." - I agree, but sometimes it's out of their control...it is like it is engraved on their soul that they have to teach things through the verb.
"I feel like I am addressing two different topics here." - I don't think you are. But if you are (cause I may be so smitten by this discussion that I am overlooking the truth lol) I am glad you are, man...
"I guess, brining it all together, adults do have to lie in order to, as you stated:" - it is not a lie, since it is not intended to hurt others; but to protect oneself, a state, privacy, negotiations etc.
"So then how can we teach our kids to be truthful and to never lie, unless they have to, of course?" - we can teach our kids never to lie (that is never to tell something that is untrue that we know it will harm, offend, insult, injure others), but we can teach them (when they are old enough to learn) that the truth is manageable; although inside the family we must always be truthful towards each other (if the bond and the sense of security, inside the group, is to prevail).
Great discussion!! Thank you so much, Mel :D!
Cheers
It's a wonder that we are not all totally screwed up in this shades of gray world of ours; The first casualty being the "truth." There should be a class in (I am not sure what grade level) "The Truth about Truth" or in your words, "Truth Management." The only problem being........do you know of anyone who is qualified to teach it?
ReplyDeleteHi Mel!
ReplyDelete"It's a wonder that we are not all totally screwed up in this shades of gray world of ours; The first casualty being the "truth."" - LOL LOL true, but as someone I know would say "we are not totally screwed up because deep down we know that we are supported by the Absolute Standard of Truth".
"There should be a class in (I am not sure what grade level) "The Truth about Truth" or in your words, "Truth Management."" - Philosophy should cover this, but I don't remember if in High School it does.
"The only problem being........do you know of anyone who is qualified to teach it?" - well, perhaps you could, Mel ;)!
Hi Max,
ReplyDeleteI must refer back to a cliché - the truth is hard to find. I will take it even further by saying that very few want to hear the truth, for it is too much. Everything we are confronted with challenges our ability to first ascertain the truth and then accept it or reject it.
We may be taught early to tell the truth, yet we find it excruciating to maintain truth. It disconcerts me that there is often a choice in telling the truth and people don't give the truth credence. I have seen the pain on the other side of truth. We defy our consciousness when we don't tell the truth, but I also know in many instances, it is not in our best interest to tell the truth. It's a walk on the razor's edge and sometimes people find themselves faced with serious life or death situations.
"On the other hand, our professional life many times demands either the omission of truth, its counterfeit or even its management."
The media often surrenders truth for sensationalism. The truth doesn't sell compared to lies.
Although I don't like lies, I think it is a necessary "evil," we have to synthesize in order to survive. There are various degrees of lies, but I think the most hurtful ones are when we are directly affected by them. (obviously) From there we carry a degree of lies inside us unless we learn to peel off the layers (masks) and get back to our individual truth. That's really all we have in the end - and it does give our Soul solace it can't do without.
Max, this was a supernally layered piece and the 'truth' is that I really enjoyed the levels you have covered and uncovered.
Thanks darling for the mental workout.
Truthful Cheers!
Hey that's why we have E and O insurance, lol.
ReplyDeleteWe all have bent the truth to some degree in our lifetimes, I see so much of it dealing with kids at the Mall, very frustrating, the expression "a bold face lie" takes on a whole new meaning.
We are in the state of the economy with the bailout and such because of all the gains idiot greedy people have made through bending the truth and making it fit for their own means.
The problem with managing and counterfeiting or however you want to put it
"the truth" is wrong, but continues and will continue until God says enough is enough.
Excellent post max, makes one think of how our lies and other's to us have hurt and had serious consequences on all parties involved.
To answer your last question, we aren't prepared by any stretch of the imagination to embrace the whole truth, in short , we can't handle the truth, I think I picked that line up in some movie somewhere,lol.
~Greetings Max~
ReplyDeleteWhat a delightful conversation you are having here!
I must say I am at times stunned by SOL 3 customs (in a quaint sort of SOL 3 way). In the Sublime Hegemony such deception is only practiced in a handful of philosophical schools.
Points are accrued upon presentation of brilliant insights and facts and such truth camouflage would be utterly ridiculous. However such concepts are commonplace outside the Sublime Hegemony such as in the Teuto-Trans-Zenith Authority Harem.
It seems that one must also know there is a truth if they are to then knowingly present a counterfeit. Therefore it follows that if a person has an in depth knowledge of the truth they cannot be fooled by such a strategy.
Hi Alexys :D!
ReplyDelete"I must refer back to a cliché - the truth is hard to find. I will take it even further by saying that very few want to hear the truth, for it is too much. Everything we are confronted with challenges our ability to first ascertain the truth and then accept it or reject it." - indeed, the truth can be painful, shocking, overwhelming, too much to bear, offensive even *nodding*. Yes, you are right...it is like our mind has to process the received information, if it is willing to accept it as being true and then, only then, it will resolve to either accept it or reject it.
"We may be taught early to tell the truth, yet we find it excruciating to maintain truth." - very well said!
"It disconcerts me that there is often a choice in telling the truth and people don't give the truth credence. I have seen the pain on the other side of truth." - you have brought a very important point to the table: a person may tell a truth yet he/she is discredited (for it is not convenient to believe in that truth). I think this is even more painful than listening to the truth; cause it may cause a person to stop believing in the truth and telling the truth.
"We defy our consciousness when we don't tell the truth, but I also know in many instances, it is not in our best interest to tell the truth. It's a walk on the razor's edge and sometimes people find themselves faced with serious life or death situations." - I agree...thus the truth management.
"The media often surrenders truth for sensationalism. The truth doesn't sell compared to lies." - it is quite a paradox, isn't it?
"Although I don't like lies, I think it is a necessary "evil," we have to synthesize in order to survive. There are various degrees of lies, but I think the most hurtful ones are when we are directly affected by them. (obviously)" - I don't like lie either, but I tend to be lenient on managed & counterfeited truths (because I understand that the truth may not always be told). Omission of truths is also acceptable. Now, lies...white lies are forgivable; but there are lies that hurt humans beings, lies that offend more than bad language, lies that ruin lives, lies that cut souls...no, those I find hard to understand.
"From there we carry a degree of lies inside us unless we learn to peel off the layers (masks) and get back to our individual truth. That's really all we have in the end - and it does give our Soul solace it can't do without." - I totally agree with you. We must learn how to peel off the "masks" layer by layer, and get back to looking within - where the Truth lies.
"Max, this was a supernally layered piece and the 'truth' is that I really enjoyed the levels you have covered and uncovered." - *bowing* thank you so much, darling :D!
"Thanks darling for the mental workout." - you're most welcome *bowing*!
Lady A, thank you for having shared your brilliancy with us - it's always an honour *bowing*!
Truthful Cheers!
Hey Bob :D!
ReplyDelete"Hey that's why we have E and O insurance, lol." - LOL LOL that was a good one LOL *nodding*!
"We all have bent the truth to some degree in our lifetimes, I see so much of it dealing with kids at the Mall, very frustrating, the expression "a bold face lie" takes on a whole new meaning." - yes, we have. I can only imagine, Bob, I can only imagine *nodding*...
"We are in the state of the economy with the bailout and such because of all the gains idiot greedy people have made through bending the truth and making it fit for their own means." - I understand where you are coming from...
"The problem with managing and counterfeiting or however you want to put it "the truth" is wrong, but continues and will continue until God says enough is enough." - this is an interesting view...but the question is: will God ever say "enough is enough"? Isn't the ability to deal with this "wrong" part of the test on earth?
"Excellent post max, makes one think of how our lies and other's to us have hurt and had serious consequences on all parties involved." - thank you, my friend :D! Oh yeah...it makes us think all right...as I wrote it I kept looking back....
"To answer your last question, we aren't prepared by any stretch of the imagination to embrace the whole truth, in short , we can't handle the truth, I think I picked that line up in some movie somewhere,lol." - LOL LOL "I want the truth"..."You can't handle the truth *enraged eyes*!!!" great movie, Bob..."A few good men"!
Lord of the Astropics, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us, it was a delight to drink them :D!
Cheers
Hey EC :D!
ReplyDeleteIt has been a while!
"What a delightful conversation you are having here!" - thank you; I was blessed with terrific friends/readers :)!
"In the Sublime Hegemony such deception is only practiced in a handful of philosophical schools." - you don't say? Are you referring to the teachings of Greek sophists? Or the study of rhetorical devices?
"Points are accrued upon presentation of brilliant insights and facts and such truth camouflage would be utterly ridiculous." - are you saying that in the Sublime Hegemony people only speek the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? I would have to say that beings from the SOL 3 are much more creative then...
"However such concepts are commonplace outside the Sublime Hegemony such as in the Teuto-Trans-Zenith Authority Harem." - I see...you must introduce us to it, I insist *bowing*!
"It seems that one must also know there is a truth if they are to then knowingly present a counterfeit. Therefore it follows that if a person has an in depth knowledge of the truth they cannot be fooled by such a strategy." - oh but they are fooled, even though they know (deep inside) that there is a truth. You see, humans take pleasure in being deceived, for hearing the truth can be rather painful (and heaven knows how they can spend a whole life time trying to escape pain - helas, with no success)...
Plus, each person's view of the truth can be counterfeited (it's not only the "true truth" that is subject to counterfeit).
EC, thank you for having dropped by (it is always a delight) and for sharing your views with us :D!
Cheers
When "transparency" is the buzz word of the day, the topic of truth is a must-have discussion that I'm glad to see you addressing!
ReplyDeleteI believe in being truthful. I have real issues with people who have a proclivity for lying. Yet I am not always 100% forthcoming.
As you infer, for me it all has to do with the INTENT.
If a woman looks like she needs cheering up, I will truthfully tell her how good she looks in burgundy ... and purposefully refrain from saying how her shoes don't match. Doing so would serve no good purpose.
If, however, her slip needs to be hiked up or her shirt tail tucked in, I can help her save face by quietly letting her know.
In a business setting, if one's intent is to set the record straight that is quite a bit different than being truthful as a weapon in advancing one's own career.
So for me, deciding how forthcoming I will be is determined by questioning my own intent.
Hey Brenda :D!
ReplyDelete"When "transparency" is the buzz word of the day, the topic of truth is a must-have discussion that I'm glad to see you addressing!" - thank you...and I am glad you joined us :D!
"I believe in being truthful. I have real issues with people who have a proclivity for lying. Yet I am not always 100% forthcoming." - oh, I have little patience for liars too *nodding*. However, I see no harm in managing the truth (two different things), so I understand you perfectly.
"As you infer, for me it all has to do with the INTENT." - I hear you!
"If a woman looks like she needs cheering up, I will truthfully tell her how good she looks in burgundy ... and purposefully refrain from saying how her shoes don't match. Doing so would serve no good purpose." - LOL LOL LOL LOL I definitely read you on this one LOL LOL! You are right, it would serve no purpose at all lol...(this was a good one)!
"In a business setting, if one's intent is to set the record straight that is quite a bit different than being truthful as a weapon in advancing one's own career." - I see what you mean...
"So for me, deciding how forthcoming I will be is determined by questioning my own intent." - you brought an excellent point to the arena: Intent! Intent is everything in life (BTW, you just reminded me that I must discuss this issue in an article...intent...very good, Brenda)!
Brenda, thank you so much for not only contributing with your thoughts on this, but also for having added an excellent ingredient to the discussion *bowing*! Loved it!!
Cheers
thanks max! *hugs*
ReplyDeleteLiza,
ReplyDeleteYou are welcome, darling *hug*! :D
Thanks for having dropped by!!
Cheers
Hello dear Max!:-) Girl, another extremely interesting post. Brilliant way of presenting different manners wherein Truth tends to be compromised. Can't help sharing my view,:-).
ReplyDeleteTruth. Complex yet simple. However, it becomes complicated when one choses to mix it up with something else. It depends on one's choices. I think, every course of action starts with a choice and a decision. The way we think, respond, react, are but manifestations of our choices and priorities.
What I learned from children is that, Truth, for them is plain and simple. No if, no buts, no compromises. They seem to handle it better than adults,:-). It must be that naked innocence, that fearless attitude attributed to that freedom they possess. Freedom from any inhibitions, hidden agendas, from fears of many kind,:-).
Truth, when it remains to be "non-negotiable" would set us free.
Interesting question and since I've lived a while, its more and more complicated. Of course I can hear my parents voice in my head, but also I know you don't have to tell everything and that does not make you a layer.
ReplyDeleteSome are talking about social or emotional (EQ) holding of wisdom of what to tell to whom and when.
The truth last longest as long as it does not harm others.
Hi Max! Consequences for lying as a young child usually resulted in us suffering some sort of physical pain. But after years of practice and watching others lie, lying eventually became second nature.
ReplyDeleteWe even lied when we weren't even in trouble, as just the smell of smack got us going!
By the time we reached puberty we were so good at it, that nine times out of ten we got away with it pain free.
Now as adults, lying is mostly done to prevent others from hearing the truth that would hurt them.
Take Care,
Peter
ya, we want to hear the truth but can we truly handle it?
ReplyDeleteHello Leo :D!
ReplyDelete"Girl, another extremely interesting post. Brilliant way of presenting different manners wherein Truth tends to be compromised. Can't help sharing my view,:-)." - thank you *bowing*! Oh, please do...you know how much I value your thoughts, darling :D!
"Truth. Complex yet simple. However, it becomes complicated when one choses to mix it up with something else. It depends on one's choices. I think, every course of action starts with a choice and a decision. The way we think, respond, react, are but manifestations of our choices and priorities." - yes.
"What I learned from children is that, Truth, for them is plain and simple. No if, no buts, no compromises. They seem to handle it better than adults,:-)." - true! And that is one of the things I love more about kids. But of course there are some who seem to be natural born liars *nodding*.
"It must be that naked innocence, that fearless attitude attributed to that freedom they possess. Freedom from any inhibitions, hidden agendas, from fears of many kind,:-)." - so sweet...you like children, don't you?
"Truth, when it remains to be "non-negotiable" would set us free." - indeed, indeed...
Leo, fantastic comment...I am in a complete state of marvel, thank you so much :D!
Cheers
Hey Renny :D!
ReplyDelete"Interesting question and since I've lived a while, its more and more complicated. Of course I can hear my parents voice in my head, but also I know you don't have to tell everything and that does not make you a layer." - you are right!
"Some are talking about social or emotional (EQ) holding of wisdom of what to tell to whom and when." - yes, wisdom is another key word in applying the managed truth. You have added another important factor! :)
"The truth last longest as long as it does not harm others." - indeed...
My friend, thank you so much for your fantastic and wise input: loved it :D!
Cheers
Hi Peter :D!
ReplyDelete"Consequences for lying as a young child usually resulted in us suffering some sort of physical pain. But after years of practice and watching others lie, lying eventually became second nature." - I hear you on that one! LOL LOL "second nature" lol I know what you mean lol...
"We even lied when we weren't even in trouble, as just the smell of smack got us going!" - that is a new perspective in this conversation...interesting! So, you were beginning to like the taste of lying...is that it?
"By the time we reached puberty we were so good at it, that nine times out of ten we got away with it pain free." - LOL are you talking about Catholic school? Because I have heard some stories that remind me of what you're saying here...
"Now as adults, lying is mostly done to prevent others from hearing the truth that would hurt them." - well, lying means to hurt someone, but I know what you mean...perhaps you are more radical: if it isn't the truth, it is a lie. Besides you brought a new light into the debate: when lying can be used for generosity purposes (this could result in a good article)!
Peter, thank you ever so much for having gifted us with this amazing comment, and for adding a fantastic thought to our debate - loved it :D!
Cheers
Hey Demara,
ReplyDeleteWell, many would say that no, we can't handle the truth!
Thanks for contributing to the debate :D!
Cheers
hey max! thanks for stopping by, i had a great one and im glad you did too. happy tuesday ;)
ReplyDeleteHey Liza,
ReplyDeleteYou are welcome, darling! And I am glad you had a great weekend :D!
Thanks, dear! Have a great week yourself!
Cheers
Max, my dear, I like that - the management of the truth. I really think in many cases, usually in the adult world, individuals should not lie, but they are not obligated to tell someone everything either, however, they can answer in the way that they don't have to offend anyone. There are people in the world that if you tell them the truth, they will hold things against you later, and that is not good. So the best way is to stay more conservative. In case of children or teenagers, it may be different, we are talking about the parent to child relationship, and if child is not telling the truth or just saying what will not spark something that can make parents suspicious, then I can see that there is no trust. If parents trust their children, children will be honest too, and even if they go to the party 'that is not supervised', they will not do anything to disappoint their parents. Max, the world, or life is complicated, and on the end it is all about the trust, then it is much easier to tell the truth. Thanks for great educational post as always, you are so precious. And by the way how is your married life, have you gone on your honeymoon yet? Hope all is well other wise, and best of luck. Anna :)
ReplyDeleteHi Anna :D!
ReplyDelete"Max my dear, I like that - the management of the truth." - I am glad you did, thank you *bowing*!
"I really think in many cases, usually in the adult world, individuals should not lie, but they are not obligated to tell someone everything either, however, they can answer in the way that they don't have to offend anyone." - I agree. To lie is one thing, but to manage the truth is another.
"There are people in the world that if you tell them the truth, they will hold things against you later, and that is not good. So the best way is to stay more conservative." - again, I agree with you.
"In case of children or teenagers, it may be different, we are talking about the parent to child relationship, and if child is not telling the truth or just saying what will not spark something that can make parents suspicious, then I can see that there is no trust. If parents trust their children, children will be honest too, and even if they go to the party 'that is not supervised', they will not do anything to disappoint their parents." - excellent point, Anna!! I will leave this section untouched....
"Max, the world, or life is complicated, and on the end it is all about the trust, then it is much easier to tell the truth. Thanks for great educational post as always, you are so precious." - I tend to find humans more complicated than life itself, but I know where you are coming from. You are welcome, darling! Ooh, thanks for your kindness *bowing*!
"Hope all is well other wise, and best of luck. Anna" - All is well, I am extremely happy :D! Thanks *hug*!
Anna, thank you for your precious contribution (you added an excellent point) and for your sympathy!! :D
Cheers
Thanks Max, you are the best!!!
ReplyDeleteAnna :)
Hey Anna,
ReplyDeleteYou are most welcome *bowing*!
And thank you for your kindness :D!
Cheers